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War on coal

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
Something good has come out of the war on coal. Duke energy is closing some coal fired power plants in Indiana. Heard on news our county council has given the green light for the coal gasification power plant in WTH to become a fertilizer plant.

Not sure if they are going to convert coal into fertilizer or what.

Years ago on the north side of town we had a central nitrogen plant that used natural gas to make fertilizer. They left town after the price of natural gas became too expensive. Next to the nitrogen plant was CO2 place that recovered the excess CO2 from the fertilizer plant.

I read where duke is closing other coal plants, so it might be possible a fertilizer plant may be coming your way.

Quasar should have a plant in DC, abundant cheap fertilizer there. Someone needs to clean up the mess they make.

geo
link
 
Wealth needs to come out of the ground. Mining, farming, fishing, etc.

Processing those items, and manufacturing them into something useable.

So here we sit on 300 years of energy, and in our 'wisdom', we shut all that down.

I don't get it.

We surely need to protect what we have, and not dirty everything up along the way. And that is difficult.

But, just shutting down industries and turning our backs on them - I don't get where we are supposed to be heading?

$15 an hour service jobs flipping burgers at McDonalds does not keep an economy healthy or growing. It is overpaying for dead end jobs that do not help grow an economy.

Makes no sense.

Sorry everyone for taking this off on political directions, but it was headed there anyhow and myself, I've lost faith in either of our political parties both of them are failing us, so I'm not at all playing a politics game. Its our entire society that is derailing....... We are rapidly becoming the Romans, entering our decline.

Paul
 
Paul, I'm with you 100%. Pretty soon we won't be celebrating the 4 of July either, as there will be nothing left to celebrate.
Loren, the Acg.
 
Power plants closing and no new ones are going to be built ????

So where is your electric going to come from ? and at what cost increase ?
 
Using all 300 years worth of coal energy isn't the smartest thing to do even though it seems like we might come up with a good alternative in that amount of time. Lets leave something for the far future. In the meanwhile, wind and solar are becoming less expensive and more available and neither of them add CO2 to our atmosphere. When coal power plants become less competitive and shut down it is a good thing for out world...except for those who invested in coal mining and power plants. It will put miners out of work. Some of them will be able to be trained to do other work.
 
AEP closed the local coal fired plant near me a couple of years ago due needless meddling by the federales.

The plant, the largest in the world when built in the early/mid 1950s, provided very good, secure jobs for thousands of locals for a couple of generations. Many, many farms and houses were bought by employees of the plant.

No more.

The fools who think that we can supply the electrical power needs of the country with solar cells and windmills need a proper background in physics, economics, etc., etc., etc.

Dean
 
A very good question, Mike.

The war on coal will inevitably lead to yet another government created disaster.

Stay tuned.

Dean
 
Everything that has been done to build this great country over the last 5 centuries from colonization to modern day has been WRONG.......according to the last few generations.
Things we learned in school are wrong.
Business is BAD.
Profit is a forbidden curse word.
History is wrong.

Now, look at what we have to choose from for leadership for the next 4 years. We are not declining. We are falling off a cliff.
 
Good point! And my rant is, I worked 40 years in and around coal fired power plants, and now I have prostrate cancer and Lymphoma. I am being treated successfully so I have a pretty normal lifestyle, but it costs thousands of $ a month. Today is my first day on medicare, so you are all helping me pay for it! Maybe it would be OK to pay a little more for clean energy.
 
The coal industry isn't shutting down, just the part of where we use the coal domestically. It is still being mined, and shipped by rail to the west coast and then on to China. Domestic use has been throttled by ever tightening emission standards. We have a coal-fired plant locally that will be shut down in a couple of years, for that reason. They had installed all the best scrubbers, etc., and emissions were very low, but yet another reduction in allowable emissions finally did them in. So now, ironically, the coal will be used in China, with no standards at all. Wouldn't it have been better to use it here, with much cleaner emissions? We all breathe the same air, ya know. . .
 
Mike M,
About 20 years ago Duke started building NG power plants. Back then they were called peaking plants. Now they are the power plants. Terre Haute has 2 large NG gas lines. One goes to Indy the other to Chicago. Now there is a giant wind farm about 100 miles north of TH that extends for miles NE. And private investors are putting up solar farms. Just a drop in the bucket. Heard on news Indiana is 14th is solar production. Geo
 
Dirt cheap natural gas, among other things, is killing coal-fired generation plants. In addition to being dirty CO2 producers, coal plants take a long time to build and don't produce peaking power very well. As electrical generation capacity moves to solar and wind, future fossil-fuel powered plants will be increasingly used to generate peaking power.
 
Russ,
About 5 years ago I got Histoplasmosis from neighbors chicken poo. I was working in his chicken coop making a hay storage place.

The x-rays of my lungs had hundreds of black spots. I was told welcome to Indiana. Cause was coal fired power plants. Not sure some of the black spots weren't from operating a diesel tractor, which today I can't even get close a diesel without getting a throbbing headache in 15 seconds of smelling diesel exhaust. My older brother has the same black spots. His Dr asked if he were a coal miner with black lung. Brother was a heavy equipment operator for 30 years. geo
 
They started building NG plants 20 years ago in TH area. There are many duke power plants up and down the Wabash river. NG plants are picking up where coal left off. The article doesn't mention the coal gasification plant was operational in 2003. Not really that old and it cost Millions if not billions, can't remember. But I'm sure duke customers paid for it.
 
We have 3 coal ship loading stations on the Mississippi in the New Orleans area that they use to transfer coal from rail to ships going off shore.
This does not include several mid stream loaders that transfer coal from barges to ships.
Each of these places deals in millions of tons a year.
In fact there is a CN train that passes here daily headed for the transfer station.
The train is so long it requires 4 engines. 2 in front; 1 mid stream; and 1 at the end.

One of these stations was owned by CN but was recently sold to Foresight Energy a Illinois Basin coal producer.
 
Something also happened to diesel engines lately that some of them give off fumes that bother me ALOT more than a good running older diesel does. I get stuck behind some of them in my car and it drafts right in there giving me a headache ! Can't see it but you sure can smell it and it doesn't smell like diesels used to.
 
I sure agree with you ! There is no EPA in CHina so they are going to be a HUGE polluter !
 
I certainly agree with what you say. I don't think we can survive 4 to 8 years more of decline if link_disallowed gets in. I don't know if nnalert would be good but I think he would be far less bad than the bit#$. The worst part of her getting is is what she will do the supreme court, being able to appoint maybe up to 3 or 4 justices which think like her. With a weak congress a lot of questions on important thing will end up at the supreme court and it will be bad if it goes abundant/progressive.
 
Maybe the DEF? I am not familiar with that, thank goodness! I thing you will see fewer small diesels in the future because of the complicated emission controls.
 
My question is does the fertilizer plant need the coal gasification plant if they aren't going to use coal to make fertilizer? So is the war on coal really lost? geo.
 
You guys are right, that's why it so much cheaper to build OUR stuff over there. Like vehicles here, they are so choked with emissions and get terrible mileage, but over there, no emissions laws, and they do pretty good. Why choke something to make it cleaner, if it is going to burn more fuel in the process?
 
We have a demand for electricity, that will not change, the coal base load is being replaced with natural gas. Wind and solar are providing more, I think that will grow, but never make enough to cover everything.
 
I sorta like the smell of the DEF, it kind of smells like bleach. The Ford 6.0 diesels have a very distinct smell that makes me nauseous, and I don't mind the smell of fuel burning
 
(quoted from post at 06:08:31 07/01/16) Good point! And my rant is, I worked 40 years in and around coal fired power plants, and now I have prostrate cancer and Lymphoma. I am being treated successfully so I have a pretty normal lifestyle, but it costs thousands of $ a month. Today is my first day on medicare, so you are all helping me pay for it! Maybe it would be OK to pay a little more for clean energy.
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Russ the key here is Clean energy that will exceed current demand. We don't have the space or the money to put up that many wind generators or solar panels. Sorry, that's just the facts. That leaves nuke or fossil fuel right now.

As far as your cancer is concerned there are many people who worked in the same conditions you did. Now I'm not trying to make this into a trivial event for you because I know it's not. But many of whom do not have cancer and never did. It's kinda like the EPA claiming that "many children died in the 50's and early 60's because of diesel particulate matter. Several things wrong with that. 1. back in that day there were few trucks other than semi's that were diesel. In fact a lot of semis in that day were gas. There were also a lot of gas tractors and construction equipment too. 2. they have no, none not one autopsy report to back up that claim. Now I'm not saying that your exposure didn't cause your cancer. But many on here claim all the chemicals used in farming are causing farmers to get cancer. I'd guess, based on the number of farmers with cancer that I know, some who are still with us, that repeated exposure may be the cause. But I don't have solid proof of that. Not every one has cancer.

Rick
 
That is what the link_disallowed administration doesn't grasp, the coal fired plants he shuts down here are just a trickle compared to China, India and other emerging economies where regulations are not even heard of.
 
4th of July? Is that the holiday where you get a day off? As long as you get a day off of work right????
 
Omaha's OPPD is shutting down their functional nuclear power plant because they can produce electricity for less cost using natural gas. The same economics are affecting the coal v. gas decisions.

OT, the acid rain problems from burning coal in the 1960's and 1970's must be a thing of the past?
 
There is a problem with coal fired plants. The EPA now requires electrostatic precipitators and scrubbers to remove the resulting fly ash. This includes chromium, vanadium, mercury, arsenic, and cadmium. Half of the man made mercury pollution comes from coal fired plants. A lot of the mercury etc. in our streams, rivers, and in the ocean comes from the rain precipitated particulates. It should now be much reduced although it may take some time for the levels in water to drop.

There is no free lunch, however. A lot of the resulting fly ash has to be disposed of. So the waste disposal companies have pressured the EPA to find places to dump the fly ash. It is being dumped into landfills that are classified for household garbage. Our state is being used as a dumping ground for this and the EPA has classified the fly ash as nontoxic. (They are playing semantic games to cover their rear.) This is as long as the liners do not leak and they all eventually leak. The heavy metals are beginning to show up in ground water around the landfills adjacent to our wetlands. Wetlands that drain into our water supplies. All they have done is create hot zones of toxic metal pollution.
Putting fly ash in cinder blocks is a better solution, but a lot is still being slated for landfills. A lot of the power companies are closing their coal ash ponds. Where do you think this is going to go?

Natural gas has far fewer problems except for fracking. There are also safer nuclear isotopes than uranium and plutonium that can be used for power generation. Thorium is far less likely to cause a melt down and the byproducts decay far more quickly than those from current nuclear reactors. There is more to this, but I limited it to be brief.
 
Then there's the methane generators several dairy farm's have them also one cheese factory I know off. I think some cities are also tapping there dumps.
When you look at the dairy are they making gas out of fertilizer?
 
Wind and solar would fall on their faces if the government didn't prop them with subsidies. Now they had coal burning cleaner than oil for power plants. The EPA needs to be reeled in a lot.
 
Vigo county is tapping the landfill and using the NG to make brick.

A dairy in N Indiana makes NG from it dairy operation. Last I heard near by is a mega pig farm.

TH wanted to turn it sewer sludge into diesel, that deal fell though.

geo.
 
The local dump has been using the methane to help power the local ethanol plant. Sioux city Iowa had been using methane digesters at the water treatment plant. A guy that I worked with had worked there, and said that it didn't make or save any money but made the area smell better.
 
The problem with methane generators. The wife wont let you in the house. After working on one.I have taken many showers in the garage with a water hose. But they do work.
 

It's all about winding up the public into a panic. Then offering to "fix" the crisis in exchange for making $$$ from the public and having power over the public.
Stupid sheeple masses have kept falling for the same simple tactic since the dawn of recorded time.
 
I think if you will look at the facts China has some big plans to reduce pollution, they have to, they can't breath! Remember when they hosted the Olympics they shut down a lot of their industry so the athletes could breath.
 
(quoted from post at 08:30:12 07/01/16) Omaha's OPPD is shutting down their functional nuclear power plant because they can produce electricity for less cost using natural gas. The same economics are affecting the coal v. gas decisions.

OT, the acid rain problems from burning coal in the 1960's and 1970's must be a thing of the past?
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No, that was a problem and can still be a great hazard but they can put in scrubbers that clean up the emissions from coal fired plants. In other words just because you burn coal doesn't mean that it has to be a hazard.

Rick
 
Bingo, Geo.

A CCNG plant was built locally about ten years ago in order to connect into the extensive infrastructure of the now closed coal fired plant.

When built, it was intended (and designed) to be a "peaking plant."

Initially, it was used as intended and designed but the owner went bankrupt, and it was idle for months (years?). After the bankruptcy proceedings and the closing of the coal fired plant, it now runs continuously.

Not being designed for continual operation, I expect it's useful life to be short.

A more fundamental issue is the coal/natural gas tradeoff, which, of course, is insanity to all but politicians and the technologicallyeconomically ignorant.

Dean
 
"When coal power plants become less competitive and shut down it is a good thing for out (sic) world...except for those who invested in coal mining and power plants."

Absolute ignorance.

The generation of electrical power by coal fired plants is becoming less competitive vis a vis other means because, and only because, of government.

Dean
 
Bingo, Jim.

A serious student of history for over 50 years, I see the big picture.

The US is collapsing at an absolutely astonishing rate.

It took the Romans about 500 years to collapse. We are doing it in a generation.

In the foreseeable future, historians will marvel about how quickly the once great US society was destroyed from within.

Dean
 
we are the only country that is really worried about this.

no we shouldn't pollute but we can't be the only ones doing anything which if we are the only ones will accomplish nothing other than cost us a ton of $ and line the pockets in dc.

we were in Ireland a couple weeks ago. They heat their homes with coal and fuel oil still. Still use coal fired power plants too.

most of their cars are all diesel but with less emissions non-sense than we have which equals lower cost and better fuel economy.. hmmm. less fuel used means less pollution .......
 
"As electrical generation capacity moves to solar and wind, future fossil-fuel powered plants will be increasingly used to generate peaking power."

Only because of government.

Dean
 
"Wind and solar would fall on their faces if the government didn't prop them with subsidies. Now they had coal burning cleaner than oil for power plants. The EPA needs to be reeled in a lot."

BINGO, Caterpillar guy!

Dean
 

NG is a great fuel but not as good as coal. too much water (by nature) in NG. it takes heat to turn that water into steam. the heat to turn the moisture to steam is robbed from the efficiency of burning NG as that extra heat needed goes up the stack in the steam. therefore you have to burn more NG to compensate. thus burning more equals more pollution. yes NG pollutes too.

and massive lines/infrastructure are needed to feed a NG plant of any consequence.

Follow the $. Someone is getting $. weather its from the NG companies or those in favour of no coal or the windmill manufactures or china or the saudis or _____ fill in the blank. nothing happens in gooberment without the $ trail. it has nothing to do with what makes any sense what-so-ever on either side of the isle.
 
We have a demand for electricity, that will not change, the coal base load is being replaced with natural gas.
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Surprisingly, the national electricity demand HAS declined, a lot. Which makes the value of generation drop, while costs continue to rise. Without the numbers in front of me, I think the recent auction of 2018 electricity ended at about a third of what it was last year ($18 vs $57). Without a growing industrial customer base, utilities must cut out the least profitable generation sources. While nuclear is less expensive than coal, the budget tightening edict has been sent out loud and clear inside the nuclear power industry.

I am not sure that some of the nuclear plant closures are not the result of the utilities wanting to get their hands on the huge piles of money they have collected in decommissioning fees, but I have no proof, of course.

In some cases (CA), it may be just being tired of fighting the enviro people for four decades. Plus, Fukushima has proven to us that even the best laid plans of Man are susceptible to the Power of the Lord.

AEP has recently converted a former coal plant to NG. It takes advantage of so much of the infrastructure already in place- switchyard access to the grid, cooling water supply, workforce, etc. AND these are base-load plants designed to run for extended periods, not the gas-turbine peak plants on the edge of nearly every city. I have no doubt we will see more of this, if it proves to work as designed. Then, watch the price of NG shoot back up...
 
Quote:
"Years ago on the north side of town we had a central nitrogen plant that used natural gas to make fertilizer. They left town after the price of natural gas became too expensive. Next to the nitrogen plant was CO2 place that recovered the excess CO2 from the fertilizer plant."

Interesting. I work at a nickel refinery, that produces ammonia for the nickel refining process, and sells the excess ammonia for fertilizer. We also produce Granular fertilizer.
Several years ago a company called Ferus built a CO2 liquefaction plant next door, we sell CO2 that we produce in our boilers from Natural Gas, to Ferus, and also operate the plant for them. Pretty nice deal. But the plant has not been running much for the past 9 months as the drop in oil prices has all but decimated the need for liquid CO2, which has mostly been used for fracking in southern saskatchewan.

Alberta has recently announced the phasing out of coal powered power plants. Our primary sources produce 16409 megawatts, with coal making 6299 megawatts total. Most new plants are being built as co-generation units, producing steam for a industrial site or burning industrial waste (think wood chips) to maximize efficiency.
The ability to stop producing 6299MW of power by the deadline has already started causing power prices to increase, even though all the plants are still running. The war on coal is going to bankrupt many companies and lots of families, especially as the price of oil stays low.
 
An interesting discussion. I have read all the comments. Many are fact based, some are reasoned and reasonable,
Others are just repeating the same old sing song...THEY...is doing it to us?

No, in America we don't have slavery, or child labor, or death causing workplaces, because we value human life.....but when we give most Americans a chance to save a dime by buying something made by a slave or child labor, or a deadly workplace, they suddenly lose all their principles .... reason? it's cheaper!

China is a dirty polluter and we need to say....clean it up, or else keep the stuff you make, in China. This is what is wrong with free trade. They do not play by the same rules.

Reminds me of a guy that would not personally steal my chainsaw, but....if he got a really good deal on a used one (mine) out of the trunk of some thugs car ....well.....this is just too good a deal to pass up.

Right, a lot has changed in the last 50 years. Personal principles is a major one.
 
>Only because of government.

Dean, how do you propose to generate peaking power if not by using gas turbine power plants? Sorry, but hydro capacity is tapped out. That leaves gas and magic. I'm told magic power isn't very reliable.
 
(quoted from post at 09:08:31 07/01/16) Good point! And my rant is, I worked 40 years in and around coal fired power plants, and now I have prostrate cancer and Lymphoma. I am being treated successfully so I have a pretty normal lifestyle, but it costs thousands of $ a month. Today is my first day on medicare, so you are all helping me pay for it! Maybe it would be OK to pay a little more for clean energy.
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Russ I really am sorry for your health problems and pray that you have a speedy recovery. But to insinuate that it was caused by coal seems a stretch. It may have contributed but lifestyles also are a big determining factor in overall health. There are other areas of the country that also have high rates of cancer and health issues and they are no where near any of the coal industry.
 
GTNG peaking plants do indeed make economic sense.

So do coal fired generation plants.

End the libs war on coal and watch what happens.

Dean
 
Same with healthcare and college tuition.

From 1990 to 2011 Healthcare costs exceeded the CPI by 3.3% per year. And because it compounds annually,
Healthcare that cost $400 in 1990, cost $1750 in 2011....a straight line upward progression for 21 years. Source: Dept. of Commerce

From 1987 to present family income has increased 147%, while college costs have increased over 500%. Source: Forbes Mag.

These costs are out of control and have been for 25 to 30 years. Who do we blame for the 1990's and early 2000's?

Maybe there is a glimmer of hope, The President of the University of Louisville just resigned in controversy. He was paid $2.8 million in 2014 by a public university?????

But on the other hand, the CEO of United Healthcare (a private insurance provider)made $66 million in 2014.
 
Well said Jim. It is amazing that with the supposed great minds in the US, are the two "chosen ones" running the best we can do? If so, we are in big time trouble. Since we have made sure anyone running must have the minority vote to win, and one of them is "building a wall" (not a bad idea at all, but just way too late now), that cliff is right around the corner. Every day I hear more and more on the "pride" movements, pc and global warming I think I might have born about 50 years too late as the greatest time for this country is now behind us (sorry to say).
 
One would be think if the fossil fuels, whatever the form, is the enemy, then if one were serious about ridding the earth of them, we would do everything possible to use them up - even with government subsidies.

On the other hand, maybe this whole anti coal, anti oil, anti US based fossil fuel effort is some grand plan to preserve our fuel reserves and when the rest of the world runs out, we'll have a monopoly and RULE THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!

I think I've cooked a little to much in the hay field today..... ;-)

Bill
 
Coal fights back

"Newsbytes: Brexit Spells End Of Europe?s Climate Obsession Germany Starts Roll-Back Of Climate Policy"

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/07/01/newsbytes-brexit-spells-end-of-europes-climate-obsession-germany-starts-roll-back-of-climate-policy/
 
If we don't progress, then we get left behind. Just because we have done things a certain way for years is not a good enough reason to keep doing it.
The east coast waterways are full of mercury, sea levels are rising, the planet is warming. I think we owe it to future generations to try to do better even if it costs a little more. Just my opinion.
 
For those of you also unimpressed by either candidate, just relax, that position means so little anymore, it may as well be the British "Royal" family. Just the highest level of rapist of the American citizen, merely one step higher than the other elected criminals in DC. We should seriously convict them all and start fresh.
 
tall kid has a job locating underground gas, electric, fiber cable, telephone.
he said when mcdonalds starting paying $15 an hour he is quitting his job as he makes about $17 an hour.
if he messes up someone could end dead doesn't seem right some high school kid making $ 15 an hour with almost no resbonsibility when he could be resbonsibale for someone hurt or worse.
 
Well if the Gov't doesn't do any better with the war on Coal than it has with the War on Poverty,Terrorism, etc etc coal can relax its not going anywhere.Hard to believe the
two best things to generate electricity with,coal and nuclear the Gov't idiot bureaucrats wants it stopped.
 
Not really, nat gas will be used mainly to cover the period when output from wind and solar diminish due to still winds, clouds, night, etc. Driving south of Berlin on the A7 a few years ago there was a wind farm of thousands of acres. Back in the distance, almost out of sight, so as not to offend the Green Party wingnut with a dose of reality, were numerous gas turbines. So people in Berlin could keep the lights on, the internet up, and have TV when the wind stopped. Solar and Wind must have backup sources.
 
(quoted from post at 14:14:34 07/01/16) I think if you will look at the facts China has some big plans to reduce pollution, they have to, they can't breath! Remember when they hosted the Olympics they shut down a lot of their industry so the athletes could breath.
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Do you really think that Western spec coal plants pollute like the Chinese plants?
 
No, coal-fired steam generation plants are terrible at peaking. They can't quickly respond to changes to demand; for that you need hydro or gas turbine power.

If coal plants were any good at peaking, the pumped storage units on either side of Niagara Falls would never have been built.
 
Perhaps when everybody's electricity costs a hundred bucks a day everyone will look a little harder at their politicians. By then the coal plants will be taken down and it will cost a hundred bucks a day for years before they get it up and running again. It's like when the cost of gas went sky high because the shut down too many refineries.
 
Show me the scientific evidence, that the sea level is rising. Exactly how much??? Planet is warmer how much and where? Beware of statements that say warmest weather in 10 years. Yeah well we just had the coldest weather in 15 years! If you look at the facts and follow the money your might just realize that your being duped
 
>Solar and Wind must have backup sources.

What you're calling "backup" is really peaking power. Which is really just a term for power that can be produced on demand. Whether a plant is responding to increased demand or decreased supply, it's still a "peaking plant".
 
Don't you know that the world is flat and all the rising seas will just flow off the edge?
And, these new fangled farming machines will never replace the draft horse. Just where is a farmer supposed to buy that
expensive gasoline that makes the "tractor" run, especially when grass for the horses is free on the farm.
 
(quoted from post at 02:11:40 07/02/16) Show me the scientific evidence, that the sea level is rising. Exactly how much??? Planet is warmer how much and where? Beware of statements that say warmest weather in 10 years. Yeah well we just had the coldest weather in 15 years! If you look at the facts and follow the money your might just realize that your being duped
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http://www.noaa.gov/climate
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level
 
Science is there, you have to look for it,[not on Fox], but globalization started when the earlist men were able to transport goods for a few miles, immigration has never stopped, and progress like the search for cleaner fuels may be plagued by steps back and then immediately enhanced by new info, change is here, never stops, good or bad, if you cannot adapt to change, you are left behind or ran over, or follow the wagon. I am left behind but I am honest enough with myself to understand why, I just cannot or refuse to keep up.
 
Stephen Newell- What the heck are you talking about or referring to about refineries shutting down????
 
According to Factcheck.Org there were 301 refineries operating in the USA in 1982. As of 2008 that number had been reduced to half that. The current refineries are operating at near capacity so there is no capacity to take up the slack if one goes down. These refineries were not closed due to EPA regulations but due to efficiency moves made by the petroleum industry so they said. There very little reserve capacity and a lot less storage for refined petroleum than there used to be. If some natural disaster were to occur.

This happened several years ago and when one went down due to an explosion the price of refined gas jumped. San Francisco August 8, 2012. Chevron refinery. There have been others, but this just one example. Sometimes the pipelines or platforms have been damaged by hurricanes and this idles refineries. Any stoppage of raw or refined petroleum has been used to raise gas prices. Even with the strategic reserves shortages can occur if damage or shortage persist for longer than several weeks.
 
(quoted from post at 11:14:34 07/01/16) I think if you will look at the facts China has some big plans to reduce pollution, they have to, they can't breath! Remember when they hosted the Olympics they shut down a lot of their industry so the athletes could breath.
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Russ China's pollution problems comes from a lot more than just coal. They burn a lot of stuff just to dispose of it that creates a lot of air pollution like old tire carcasses and old computer boards. What they have done to their rivers defies common sense.

GUys this isn't only about people here in the US making money. It's part of the overall goal to bring 3rd world countries standards of living up. In part it causes US and other developed nations jobs to go off shore because of the alleged pollution. What the one worlders fail to see is that the governments in these 3rd world countries are so corrupt that the money never gets into the hands of the workers. They still live in the same squalid conditions but now with the added problems of their water supply and air being highly polluted. They will bring everyone into the same standard of living eventually, our standards will go down enough to meet theirs.

Rick
 
oldtanker- But..But..But some posters here say the EPA has to be abolished! That we have too
much regulation on pollution!
 
Well actually I believe in global warming and I am glad we have it. If it wasn't for global warming ice would still cover a BIG part of this good ole usa
 
And the Sun is responsible for 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the Global Warming too and its a good thing or we'd all freeze to death in seconds without it.
 
I read that coal companies are supposed to have funds set aside for reclamation and cleanup after they shut down. Some larger companies are self insured, meaning they say they keep these funds on their own, but it turns out when they get in financial trouble they use that reserve and if they fail guess who pays for reclamation and cleanup...yup, the tax payers.
 
Can you provide exact proof your prostate cancer and lymphoma were caused by working in a coal fired power plant? I had prostate cancer and have never been in a power plant. Does driving by one count?
 
(quoted from post at 00:30:10 07/02/16) oldtanker- But..But..But some posters here say the EPA has to be abolished! That we have too
much regulation on pollution!
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The EPA needs to be reigned in, made accountable and have to justify their regulations. The EPA is a dictatorship with no appeals and the regulations are now excessive . Just check into stock water ponds and Tier III,IV and V diesel emissions.
 
People defended the "flat earth" theory (despite the evidence) and the position that the tractor would never replace the horse (despite the evidence), just as aggressively as today's "anti"-climate change folks deny the evidence.
 
(quoted from post at 21:30:10 07/01/16) oldtanker- But..But..But some posters here say the EPA has to be abolished! That we have too
much regulation on pollution!
Click to expand...

I'm not saying shut the EPA down. They do need some control or "oversight".

Rick
 
Greg1959,

Thanks for the link. I know they increased/are increasing the BPD capacity of the existing and new refineries, but there is still little reserve capacity to make up for deficits when a refinery has to be shut down for maintenance or has some catastrophic failure.
Running refineries at full capacity has shown increasing probability for major breakdown.
I looked at the graphs and there was a period where production capacity lagged for a number of years and production is now actually above the 1982 level. There are also new techniques to improve yield and quality that did not exist in 1982.
What I don't know is how long refineries can run with refitting or down time.
The way I look at it is that producers have increased efficiency and improved their bottom line, but still keep the supply marginally beyond demand level, and do not have a turn key solution to compensate for major disasters.

As to the EPA needing oversight. They need to keep their paws off of consumer gas cans. There has been tremendous waste and spillage resulting from their requirements in this area not to mention the drastic increases in the cost of these 5 gallon monstrosities. They should have gone to OSHA and used their approved designs. What a nightmare. I think a simple gas can with a tethered screw cap would have been preferable and far less likely to leak fuel because all of the ones I have seen are not engineered with common sense. Yet they keep coming out with newer defective versions along with resulting price hikes.
 
(quoted from post at 09:57:36 07/01/16) Using all 300 years worth of coal energy isn't the smartest thing to do even though it seems like we might come up with a good alternative in that amount of time. Lets leave something for the far future. In the meanwhile, wind and solar are becoming less expensive and more available and neither of them add CO2 to our atmosphere. When coal power plants become less competitive and shut down it is a good thing for out world...except for those who invested in coal mining and power plants. It will put miners out of work. Some of them will be able to be trained to do other work.
Click to expand...

See, these are the type of statements that make me pull out what little hair I have left. Wind and solar are becoming less expensive IF you have the taxpayer subsidies. Without them wind and solar are as expensive as ever. And they most certainly so add CO2 to the atmosphere! How do you think all the plastics, metals and rare earth minerals come to be put together into a turbine, generator or PV cell? Let's at least be honest and truthful- wind and solar are becoming cheaper through taxpayer subsidies and after they are manufactured they don't add CO2.
 
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