How would this situation be handled in your area?

Here goes: 1. repair man comes out to fix baler. 2.door repair man to fix garage door open. 3.Chainsaw repair shop issues. They work on the item for hours to find the pestery and odd ball issue. How do they charge for it?? like took 4 hours to find a loose wire in the door opener. Chainsaw got rebuilt twice only to find a crack in the case when it gets hot!!! Baler received all kinds of new knotter parts and hours of labor only to find the mounting plate or frame was bent/twisted!!! In some cases the company took a loss and billed for parts. Is it fair for customer to foot a massive bill for something like this? In the garage door issue it would have been better to replace it hind site 20/20. So fire away what would you do in these situations as a customer or shopkeeper?

No matter how it's handled, everybody loses in these situations. I don't think anybody desires these situations. I think most of the time, around here, the company charges for time and parts, and expects to be paid, unless the customer complains/starts negotiations. I've been in those losing situations as a repair person working a long time to find a tiny problem. The boss would negotiate with a customer. Mostly the situations were resolved so everyone could go on.

A few years back my Ford 655A TLB developed a flasher/warning light problem. I worked one afternoon, and the next morning, only to find a really stupid, simple problem. I told my friends at the shop where I used to work I was glad I wasn't paying someone to do it!

I work for a company that sends out Service Personnel to work on various machines. I have the luxury of inspecting the job, or bring the tech with me as customer service call. We can inspect and give an accurate estimate before works starts. Seldom do any issues come up and when they do I always try to resolve in customers favor. I always look for the most cost effective method to get things up and running.

I'll tell you this much. I had a neighbor who did refrigeration work. The bulk tank was giving me fits,running all day,warm milk,only the upper coils were frosting up in the tank. He came every night for two weeks,kept putting his gauges on it,twisting the valves on them,not making any progress. The milkman finally told me something needed to be done,he almost had a load of milk rejected because of it. That night I told the guy what the hauler had said. His feet came about a foot off the ground and he started yelling that maybe the milkman should fix it then. I asked him if he could please call a dealer and ask them if they'd ever run in to that trouble. He wouldn't say that he would,but he did the next morning. They told him there was oil settled in the lower coils,take the line apart and blow them out with nitrogen.
He did that,had it fixed in a few hours. He gave me a bill for close to $900. When I objected,he got all bent out of shape,started practically screaming and cursing that he'd been here working on it for two weeks! I thought to myself "You wouldn't have been if you knew what you were doing.".
I paid him,but things were never the same between us again.

Many time here in my shop I spend hours sorting out wiring issues on older tractors,,as I look at how much time I have in it I think that is way too much and get the eraser out wiping off half the time,,I tell the customer and let it go at that,, I will not bill a job out If I think it's unfair,,money is not every thing...there are times when I spend more time on sorting out tractor light messes than it takes to put a clutch in..Darn it..

Its tough either way.

My oil burner furnace wasn't lighting up, in Minnesota in January that is important.....

Poor repair guy made three trips getting parts, etc.

Adjusted those old and new ignighter sticks over and over, looking at the spray pattern.....

Last time he left for a bit, I looked the ignighter (big spark plug sorta) over and the insulated shafts looked real short on the back side, was close to the metal frame holding them.

He already had got a new transformer for it, some new wire and connectors, on and on. Last time he left for more parts he looked real frustrated, that blank I don't have a clue what to check any more' look.

I quietly mentioned it to the guy when he came back, he looked at it, got that 'oh' frown and had it working in 2 minutes.

Felt bad for him, he billed me for the parts and maybe an hour, but he spend 6 hours on all that.....

Paul

I got in to a situation like that yesterday. It's still as big a mystery to me as why that starter on that Yamaha 4 wheeler ran backwards.
I put the engine back in the White 2-105 after I put a clutch in it. I was hooking everything back up,hooked up the throttle linkage and it wasn't right. The lever in the cab was all the way ahead when the engine was at idle when it should have been all the way back instead. I took the pin out,worked the lever and the plate under the fuel tank where the linkage rod hooked,moved ahead when I pushed the lever ahead. I started the tractor with it unhooked and I had to pull the linkage rod back to rev the engine faster. Totally opposite what it was trying to do with the linkage rod hooked up. I pulled the whole dash apart,thought something must have flipped over when I had the front of the cab jacked up. I couldn't see where anything could have possibly flipped. Finally,out of pure frustration,after more than an hour of frogging around,I pulled the linkage rod out,turned it around so the adjustable clevis was in the engine end instead of back under the tank. I put the pin in it,put the other end with the 90 degree bend,in the plate under the fuel tank,moved the throttle lever and it worked!

Figure that one out. How do you change the geometry of it all by just turning the linkage rod so the clevis is on the other end?

Of course then I had to put the whole dash back together,all the rubber stripping back in between the cab and cowl,what a job! It's a good thing it was my own and I didn't have to bill somebody by the hour.

I don't remember the starter issue. Is it a permanent magnet type motor? I believe the field housing on some of those things can be put back either way, and the polarity of the magnets determines which way the motor turns.

All the years I worked at IH dealer I found one thing to be certain. New model tractor, first information comes to sales dept. Next, the parts dept gets parts book and recommended stocking list. Third, sometimes six months later, a service manual. Think that doesn't leave a mechanic hanging trying to satisfy a customer. Most models were introduced early fall and service training was always in like Feb to April. Customer wasn't getting billed but warranty reimbursement sure took it in the shorts.

You got off lucky. I bought a new out of the box gas furnace from Empire. It failed to light. Empire sent a new gas valve. 400.00 $ labor, later the repair man had it working. Empire only paid 200.00 of the bill. Empire furnace co. doesn't cover labor, just parts. Since it was new they did feel sorry for me and paid what they did. Stan

When dealing with unforeseen problems, I will always sway in the customers favor, especially if it's something I did wrong or overlooked. I prefer to sleep at night over getting paid for every minute I spent staring at something trying to figure out what to do next!

One of the worse examples I've ever seen though, is when we (rarely) have to call in the factory tech to diagnose a problem with a CNC lathe or mill. They charge something like $400 an hour, plus travel expenses, which can include air fare, hotel, and meals in extreme cases.

What makes it so bad is they will typically send out the worst of the worst new hire trainee, totally clueless, and obviously so from the minute they get there. After a day of bumbling, nothing accomplished, something unrelated broken, needless parts ordered...

Then a different tech shows up to install the part, still doesn't work, order more parts...

Then finally a real tech shows up, puts the unnecessary part on, fixes the original problem in 10 minutes!

But, we get charged for every minute, every part, no negotiating! They know they are the only game in town, and take full advantage of it!

I remember it, still a mystery..

But it is not an assembly problem. Looked on Youtube, it happens all by itself! One day it's working fine, then hit the starter, the motor spins backward, the engine doesn't turn because of the drive clutch.

Strange!

Is this with a permanent magnet type motor? I've never heard of it with any of the old tractor starters when changing polarity or voltage.

Yes I worked 4 years at a Prairie Farms Dairy that made ice cream just for Steak N' Shake to make their shakes with. NH3 was the refrigerant that was used to cool the tanks and hardening room. Every Sunday I had to drain the oil from the bottom of the tanks and the 3 cylinders of the Ice Cream Freezer. It was the most dangerous job there but it had to be done or the milk would not cool or ice cream get hard.
Once the ice cream was made and packaged into 5 gallon containers, 80 contaioners were stacked 4 high on a pallet and put in the hardening room where it was a negative 25?F (25?F below zero). More than once a pallet of containers were spilled onto the floor and it didn't take long to freeze to the floor. It was a job to clean that up.

But yes oil will collect in the bottom of the cooling tanks and keep it from cooling.

I do service work, mostly industrial controls. If I feel that I got off track, missed a simple clue, etc., I will reduce the hours charged. However, on intermittent problems, there can be a lot of time wasted until the actual problem is discovered. Then I usually charge for most of the time, because of the nature of the problem, that is what it took to fix it.
My first customer from 31 years ago still calls, so I must be doing something right.

I forgot to mention when draining the oil from the system make sure there is a deadman valve on the outlet that you use to drain the oil. Also I learned by putting a hose on the dead man valve and sticking the other end into a bucket of water took much of the odor and danger away from the Annhydrous Ammonia that was used as a refrigerant.

I will deduct time from the bill in a situation like that. Now if the customer is just hard to get along, wanting to use old parts that take longer to clean up, constantly worrying me, then I will bill for the whole amount. If I don't get called back or a referral to their friends I don't worry about it.

What I think so many people want is someone to take over their problem and assume all responsibility for it at a cheap price. The final thing that fixes a strange problem is always the last thing fixed. Sort of like always finding something in the last place you look. It is your machine. You know the history. The repair guy is just trying to figure it out. Why does he have to assume the responsibility risk on your problem?

I have a friend that owned an auto repair shop for a few years. He bought it with the idea if I am honest and treat people fairly they will come back. After a couple of years he just sold the business. Most of his customers just wanted to screw him. He has one story of a guy who came in for the first time and wanted a used car checked over before he bought it. My friend checked the car over for a small fee. After he bought it there where some problem and the customer wanted him to fix them for free. So my friend got paid $50 and the customer wanted him to take responsibility for everything. My friend being really stupid offered to fix the car but for some low cost. The customer agreed and then never paid.

Find a good repair shop and stick with them. Pay them for their work. Some problems are found in the first place they look some the last. Over time you will come out even. When you walk out of the shop with a small bill and think you got off lucky remember that when you think you got over charged the next time.

Steve, any way to request the tech who you know knows his stuff? Bill

Is it possible your farm was built on top of some ancient alien ruins?

(quoted from post at 17:22:51 07/14/16) I'll tell you this much. I had a neighbor who did refrigeration work. The bulk tank was giving me fits,running all day,warm milk,only the upper coils were frosting up in the tank. He came every night for two weeks,kept putting his gauges on it,twisting the valves on them,not making any progress. The milkman finally told me something needed to be done,he almost had a load of milk rejected because of it. That night I told the guy what the hauler had said. His feet came about a foot off the ground and he started yelling that maybe the milkman should fix it then. I asked him if he could please call a dealer and ask them if they'd ever run in to that trouble. He wouldn't say that he would,but he did the next morning. They told him there was oil settled in the lower coils,take the line apart and blow them out with nitrogen.
He did that,had it fixed in a few hours. He gave me a bill for close to $900. When I objected,he got all bent out of shape,started practically screaming and cursing that he'd been here working on it for two weeks! I thought to myself "You wouldn't have been if you knew what you were doing.".
I paid him,but things were never the same between us again.

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If the guy was a real friend he would've charged you a hundred or so and made up the difference himself, OR he would've made the suggestion to split the bill with you. Cheap enough for a friendship if you only have a few REAL friends, which is what I've got! 8)

Well, my boss doesn't have the balls to require certain things when something is taken to a dealer. Stihl dealer gave away one of our almost brand new chainsaws that was being worked on, to someone that walked in and said they worked for us. Even though our supervisor is the only one that ever picks up, pays for, or drops saws off. They said they were sorry, there was nothing they could do, didn't get his name. Wouldn't help on replacing it, and boss let it go. Unfortunately they are the only Stihl dealer near by. Another was a truck we had that died, and our mechanics didn't have time to work on it, so they had it towed to the dealer. They got it running, but when it came back, nothing on the dash worked, although it did before it died. My boss asked then to look at it again and see if they did something to the dash when working on it. Now at least half of the dash works, even though all of it did work. Been that way a year now.

On many things figuring out the problem is what takes the time not fixing it,that said I like to do most of my own repair work because I hate to pay for someone's else education
to learn what they should have already known on my Dime.

We bought the JD 7800 at a consigmment auction knowing there had to be something wrong with it. It was just too perfect. Not a scratch on it, new loader, well serviced.

Once we had used it a while we noticed the hydraulic pressure was off. We sent it to John Deere for a go over. They found the pressure issues but couldn't figure it out. After four of them had stared at it a week I (firmly) suggested some things guys here had said it could be. Low and behold, fixed tractor with some kind of backup pump (I can't recall what it was exactly). The bill was $7000. Nearly all of that was while they bumbled around and couldn't figure it out.

All said and done, it has been a great tractor and we still have much less in it than it is worth. I'm sure it was at the sale because someone didn't want to pay for the hunting expedition. I wish we didn't have to, but such is life.

(quoted from post at 20:31:41 07/14/16) On many things figuring out the problem is what takes the time not fixing it,that said I like to do most of my own repair work because I hate to pay for someone's else education
to learn what they should have already known on my Dime.

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I agree with the value of self-education but am now having trouble remembering what I just learned or something that I've known and done most of my life! :?

I paid for a lot of educations dueto ignorance ,.. a guy I knew went to my church and was fired or let go by the jd dealer over understandable personality issues he told me,, this was back in 1992, I could not get along with snaz the dealer either, because my blood was not green when I hurt myself , LOl,,rite at that time , unbeknowest to me,i needed new brakes on my 4020 ,, but the immediate problem was dirty watery hydraulic oil , and shakey lift and steering , and sluggish shifting,,. all indicated by the pressure guage that was always below the safe zone , new filters and oil changes worked for a month . then the problem was back again ,after church I mentioned theproblem to the out of work mechanicwho was now freelancing out of his garage , doing anything that needed fixing ,.. he was confident he knew how he could fix my 4020 ,.so I took my deere to him ,. week later he says shes ready ,. put entire tranny clutch pak in the powershift ,said he cleaned a lot of fiber trash out of tranny from the worn out gear paks , and he needed 1880 bux , ouch , but its fixt! , Rite
! , so I paid the man, I lookt at the clutch tranny gears pak , and all lookt really good,,.and I have the parts in a plastic bag on the shelf today , within a couple weeks , same problem jerky steering and remotes vwry weak, low hydro pressure , so I call the guy,. and he says its probably the remote module needing rebuilt, or maybe the front hydro pump ,,.he ended up putting a new seal kit in both , and telling me there was a lot of trash in the pump and he flush cleaned the lines ,.675 bux ,. more new oil and filters ,month later , the deere was back to square one again , no hydro pressure,. the brakes worked great thru this entire ordeal ,. now my church pal was working for the massey dealer,.i stopt in to see my deere folx a month after snazz's funeral,Sherril ,bak in the shop , had time to chat and had always been good to me, after heareing themost recent history ,and knowing the 4020 since it had 2 hours on the motor,,. he said ," I bet it is the brakes need replacing , don't think that was ever done on that 4020 as far asi know " ,I asked do the trumpets really need to come off to do that work , "Yep No other way around it, aint too bad a job, with the rite jacks and jibs that the shop had, so , Sherrill did the work and I sunk another 2400 bux , which included a new hydro pump ( the rebuilt one chronically leaked )and a steering motor rebuild and new brakepedal seals ,,. that durn hydro pump workt a week and sprung a bad leak , deer and Sherrill fixt it under warranty , week later lifting the baler tailgate , started leaking again , this time they brought out a brand new pump , but it leaked on startup ,EXASPERATION .dang this dear 4020 was starting to get on everyones nerves beside mine ,.sherrill wanted the 4020 bak in his shop,so we hauled it there,,turned out it was a simple o ring that was overtightened from factory ,. only way you could see i t was to have the fuel tank and front stript off,. thankfully warranty took care of all expense except the new trans oils .. finally I have a tractor

Bill, not really, the only contact is through a receptionist. We only call as a very last resort, don't know any of them, never see the same one twice. They appear to be traveling employees, just depends on who is our area at the time. Most speak little English.

Here it depends on who you are dealing with. Local outdoor power place is run by a guy who knows how to take care of a customer. But you walk in and try talking him down on a bill or lie to him and he'll tell you to leave and to never come back. Another shop that does auto repair will bite you nearly every time you walk through the door. He bills full shop rate for hours and if he goes over he'll charge for that too. Other shops love this guy because often a frustrated customer will bring something in to fix that the other guys didn't do right. The guy I worked for doing repairs charge only shop rate and if something wasn't right he made it right. He also didn't charge the full markup that our suppliers recommended. Just depends of the business.

Rick

I think I've got a ghost who loves to see me get frustrated.

I don't know what the terms are. It has two brushes,that's all I can tell you. When I'd reverse the polarity,it would run the right way,but the rest of the machine wouldn't take it when I tried to switch the battery cables. It blew a fusible link right quick when I tried.

I think most businesses anymore charge full rate for the full time whether they get it fixed or not. Really hard to find anyone who knows what they are doing too.
Back when I had my own shop working on stuff full time I know I cut many a bill down to make it seem more realistic and to not try and get more into something than it was worth. I sure didn't do myself any favors !
I was even available weekends and evenings and whenever.
I just don't see how many of the small shops around me can only be open 8-5 Monday thru Friday ? I guess that's just another area I goofed up on ?

As a business owner I learned after not too long that you are not going to make money every day. There just are some things that you can't bill to customer if you you have any conscience at all. If you bill fairly your business will get stronger and stronger. On the other side of the coin, I took a housing to the local CNH dealer to get a new sleeve pressed into it. The service manager called after awhile to ask if I wanted it cleaned out inside. I said OK. I got it back a day or two later. The charge was $1,100 for what I estimated would be one hour. I asked the service manager about it and he said that it seemed like a lot of time to him, so he had verified it with the tech. I asked the GM, who was supposed to be my buddy, and he said that it was up to the service manager. I believe that I have been back there just twice in about eight years.

I would think the wiring would be the first thing they looked at on the door, I would want the boss or business owner to explain that one. The cracked case on the chainsaw should have shown up in a compression test which should have been done before the first rebuild so I would definitely question the shops diagnostic procedures and experience of the technician. On the baler mounting plate being twisted I would have probably found that myself because I would exhaust everything I know about a baler knotter before I let the dealer get hold of it, this is 2016, very few dealer techs are going to know anything about a small square baler except in limited areas of the country.

paying for diagnostic time isn't unrealistic. but paying for time because they don't know what they are doing is. They should pay to go to school not you and I paying them to learn on the job.

on autos there is tons of information on how many hours a certain job should take to do. the quote should be based on that. yeah, sometimes there is more to it that was unseen when they get into the job but they should call with new quote before proceeding.

i think paying the plumber (heating and cooling) $85 just to drive to your house is ridiculous. travel time (within reason, within town or next town) is a cost of doing business. if they go next door right after your hose they'll charge them $85 too.

Most people can't tell the difference between diagnostics and not knowing what one is doing. They just expect the technician to lay hands on the machine and instantly know exactly what's wrong with it.

I personally don't mind paying for diagnostic time because I've been there myself, spending hours checking things over and over, only to find something simple and stupid was wrong. You feel stupid but you didn't do anything wrong! Your diagnostic methodology was right on the money, but the simple/stupid thing that was the actual cause of the problem is not something that normally causes problems!

Read your comments and the part about charging the guy next door the travel time caught my eye. That was another one of the reasons I quit working at CaseIH dealer. New owners would charge each customer for travel time even if I was stopping at several different jobs on the same trip. I maintained they should split it up and they just said, no, this is how we do it. So, your business, run it the way you want, I'm leaving. They left also in about two more years. No dealer here now.

I don't have a problem paying someone to diagnose something. Some problems are harder to find than others. What I do have a problem with, is when they diagnose a problem incorrectly, replace parts that didn't need to be replaced, and then expect me to pay for them.

bummer

Here is my take.
First off, the repairmen is supposed to know his job, know his product, and have service information available to him at the jobsite. This is what you should expect for the high labor rates that are charges these days.
When I do something for a customer, I want to see that the customer receives fair value for the service provided. It simply is not right to charge a customer for my education - over and above what should already be expected.

The garage door guy should have known to check basics - like for loose wires - when he arrived at your home.
The baler guy should have known sooner that the frame was bent. Yours was probably NOT the first time he saw that problem. Even I have read about bent baler frames on this forum more than once.
The chainsaw guy might have some excuse if the crack was not readily apparent.

In either case, you should have only been charged a reasonable diagnostic time and the time required to complete the repair. That would be fair.

I don't know,..I fix my own stuff. I can only blame myself if i did/do not get it right the first time