- Thread starter Greenfrog
- Start date
Various people 'here' do that with tractors and small engines (particularly snowblowers and generators) because you can't buy automobile gasoline with no ethanol in it due to EPA mandates. The ethanol component is supposedly what doesn't keep. I was under the impression that lead is being phased out of avgas soon.
well, I work in the small engine industry now. In NC. At the service schools they tell us to 'educate the customer' that most pump gasoline begins to go bad in as little as two weeks from when you get it from the pump.
We are also telling our customers to buy 93 octane gasoline or ethanol free gas if they can get it for their small stuff.
I can understand the part about leaded fuel too- a lot of the older engines didn't have valve seats hard enough to withstand unleaded gas and the lead was a lubricant for the valve seats. The trick is to know which engines and with some manufacturers, it depends on what year, and sometimes which engine had the hardened valve seats in it or not.
Most of the gasoline available around here has 10 percent ethanol in it. I am told that they use the ethanol to raise the octane rating of the fuel. So when the alcohol evaporates you have lower octane than when it came out of the pump.
I do find that if I put 93 octane in the tanks of machines I don't use often I am much more likely to get it to start without a lot of fuss two or three months later.
We are also telling our customers to buy 93 octane gasoline or ethanol free gas if they can get it for their small stuff.
I can understand the part about leaded fuel too- a lot of the older engines didn't have valve seats hard enough to withstand unleaded gas and the lead was a lubricant for the valve seats. The trick is to know which engines and with some manufacturers, it depends on what year, and sometimes which engine had the hardened valve seats in it or not.
Most of the gasoline available around here has 10 percent ethanol in it. I am told that they use the ethanol to raise the octane rating of the fuel. So when the alcohol evaporates you have lower octane than when it came out of the pump.
I do find that if I put 93 octane in the tanks of machines I don't use often I am much more likely to get it to start without a lot of fuss two or three months later.
Here's the reason he said that. Auto fuel has additives, and of course ethanol which eventually cause the fuel to go stale. Depending on a lot of factors, it can take 6 months, or as long as 3 years for gasoline to go stale.
Avgas has a far different stabilizer package in it, and no ethanol. It will not separate in the tank, and has a much higher Reid vapor pressure, so not as affected by temp and humidity. Also, the small amount of lead in the fuel acts at a stabilizer as well, and will help lube the valve train on older engines.
It's not a bad idea for tractors that will sit for long, long times out in the pasture with extreme heat/cold cycles and changes in humidity. Also, tractor gas caps are notorious for being leaky, letting in vapor contaminants which reduce the life of all fuels.
Avgas is just a much better quality product than you get at your local stations. You don't need much, a few gallons in the tank will help It would be ideal to full the tank full of avgas and displace the air in there, but that's not economically viable. In best case economically add a couple gallons to your regular quality Shell or Phillips fuel to see there is no air left in the tank. The avgas will help stabilize the regular fuel too.
Avgas has a far different stabilizer package in it, and no ethanol. It will not separate in the tank, and has a much higher Reid vapor pressure, so not as affected by temp and humidity. Also, the small amount of lead in the fuel acts at a stabilizer as well, and will help lube the valve train on older engines.
It's not a bad idea for tractors that will sit for long, long times out in the pasture with extreme heat/cold cycles and changes in humidity. Also, tractor gas caps are notorious for being leaky, letting in vapor contaminants which reduce the life of all fuels.
Avgas is just a much better quality product than you get at your local stations. You don't need much, a few gallons in the tank will help It would be ideal to full the tank full of avgas and displace the air in there, but that's not economically viable. In best case economically add a couple gallons to your regular quality Shell or Phillips fuel to see there is no air left in the tank. The avgas will help stabilize the regular fuel too.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Gasoline goes bad. It goes bad from evaporation and from reaction to oxygen in the air, and from moisture. It can take a year for either type to sour. Stabil, or other treatment can extend that 6 months or so, maybe more, but not mush. If you want it to stay operational, draining the fuel, and sealing the tank against moisture is about it. Av gas is not a solution for engines that have the compression of antique tractors. The difference in price and convenience alone is worth draining the tank. Leaded gasoline is the reason sparkplugs needed to be changed every 7000 miles or sooner. Nasty stuff. Jim
All I know is that lower compression aircraft engines, like the one that was in my wife's Cessna, got fouled plugs and stuck exhaust valves using
100LL avgas. Low compression doesn't like to scavenge the lead as easily. I also know that in my slightly higher compression experimental aircraft I
was doing an exhaust valve job on at least one cylinder every two years until I switched to premium auto fuel 18 years ago. Haven't had any valve
issues since.
100LL avgas. Low compression doesn't like to scavenge the lead as easily. I also know that in my slightly higher compression experimental aircraft I
was doing an exhaust valve job on at least one cylinder every two years until I switched to premium auto fuel 18 years ago. Haven't had any valve
issues since.
old popper
Well-known Member
I use 100 LL avgas in the v-4 pony motor on my 720 diesel.
In the past, I used it in my pulling tractor. It made a noticeable difference in power over pump gasoline.
In the past, I used it in my pulling tractor. It made a noticeable difference in power over pump gasoline.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Not a "flame" !! Av gas and high octane fuel burn cooler and are more difficult to ignite. The purpose is to make it harder for the engine to detonate or pre-ignite. Absolutely not hotter, A most common error for car owners is to put in higher octane fuel to go faster. It will not unless it is a newer vehicle that can increase the ignition timing to take a little advantage of the knock properties. Jim
Well, as with everything the feds touch, they screwed up the fuel replacement path with avgas too. There is one provider of unleaded avgas now called SwiftFuel.
https://swiftfuels.com/faq/
They have a UL91, UL94, and UL102 octanes, but their sales are microscopic.
The drop in replacement for 100LL(leaded avgas) is the UL102. It's been in development and testing now for about 9 YEARS. Always the feds drag their feet on certification. First, they wanted to certify it by airframe, like auto fuel. That hasn't worked well. Next they wanted to develop completely new standards for fuels, and that died on the vine. now, they say it's nearing the end of investigation and will soon be certified for all aircraft using 100LL. We'll see, what we see. I don't hold much hope.
https://swiftfuels.com/faq/
They have a UL91, UL94, and UL102 octanes, but their sales are microscopic.
The drop in replacement for 100LL(leaded avgas) is the UL102. It's been in development and testing now for about 9 YEARS. Always the feds drag their feet on certification. First, they wanted to certify it by airframe, like auto fuel. That hasn't worked well. Next they wanted to develop completely new standards for fuels, and that died on the vine. now, they say it's nearing the end of investigation and will soon be certified for all aircraft using 100LL. We'll see, what we see. I don't hold much hope.
t.r.k.- Just a question....Have you ever worked at the Blending Rack at a Refinery?
There could be a bunch of different % blends, the main objective is to reach the desired Octane Level for that particular blend.
As long as I reach the desired 'calculated' Octane level and it passes the "Control Lab" Octane analysis, I'm good to go.
Heck you may have 30% Alkylate and I can boost the Octane level with pure Toluene. The recipes vary with what ever the FCC, RCC, etc. are producing at that time.
Not every batch of gasoline is made the same. Then, we get to add the additives for certain brands.
Shoot, a refinery in the western USA may 'blend' up a gasoline package for a particular brand that does not have a refinery on the region.
The basic recipe varies but the Additive package meets the buyers specs.
There could be a bunch of different % blends, the main objective is to reach the desired Octane Level for that particular blend.
As long as I reach the desired 'calculated' Octane level and it passes the "Control Lab" Octane analysis, I'm good to go.
Heck you may have 30% Alkylate and I can boost the Octane level with pure Toluene. The recipes vary with what ever the FCC, RCC, etc. are producing at that time.
Not every batch of gasoline is made the same. Then, we get to add the additives for certain brands.
Shoot, a refinery in the western USA may 'blend' up a gasoline package for a particular brand that does not have a refinery on the region.
The basic recipe varies but the Additive package meets the buyers specs.
Every small engine I have, two and four cycle gets hy-test. Now for Really cold weather I use AV gas in my Gravely snow blower. Has the older cast iron Kohler engine. The AV gas lets it pop righ off in cold conditions. However, you must readjust your carb to use 104 gas. The fuel air mix needed about 1/2 turn in. The main jet needed almost a full turn in. They really run like good old time engines. Talking about crap gas. My bad but here is the story. I have been clearing a huge mess of twisted up underbrush and tree limbs. Has taken several weeks.. Here is the kicker. There was an almost week and half stop. Dummy me i left the saw out in the hot sun on a cart. Just forgot. If you don't think that saw didn't run like garbage!!!! Dumped out the gas and put in fresh mix. I also threw in a nice splash of sea foam. It took about three or four minutes for 5he saw to start running correctly. Sea foam has a lot of converts on here and so am I.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Ethanol at the pump is low grade, low octane gasoline with alcohol added to raise the octane. It's the crap gasoline the alcohol is added to that goes bad. Alcohol is a pure product that does not go bad by itself.
Tramway Guy
Well-known Member
A lot of non-ethanol here in New York....but it is premium only. The other option is some marinas that have non-ethanol.
My personal experience with ethanol gas is that it works just fine in all our small engines. As long as you keep it in a sealed container, it should not go bad.
My personal experience with ethanol gas is that it works just fine in all our small engines. As long as you keep it in a sealed container, it should not go bad.
Pete in MD
Well-known Member
- Location
- Central Maryland
Here's a site that shows ethanol free stations by state. Some also show avgas availability.
Ethanol free gas
Ethanol free gas
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Separate tanks.
I've got two stations near me now that sell non-ethanol premium.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
You're exactly right and apparently few people understand what high octane fuel is all about,it'll cause a normal compression engine to carbon up then fuel will preignite from the built up carbon. As you stated he higher the octane the harder it is to get to burn.Millions of dollars are wasted on 'premium' gas every year by US consumers.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Yes!!!! The real issue in the USA is the choice of the source of information people take as factual. Truth is the repeatability of experiences with fact being the generated outcome. Wrapping ones head around the physics of combustion requires actual understanding of thermal and chemical properties of oxidation. I worked with Colorado emissions testing in the mid to late 1980s. From Methel Tertiary Butyl Ether, to Methanol, the state made strong (sometimes wrong) effort to blend fuels to limit smog and allow catalytic systems to work. Jim
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Add me to the list of proven SF users. Yeah it's alcohol, light mineral oil, and naptha but it works for me and at 7 bucks a pint at most places, a good buy.
Determined
Well-known Member
Might as well throw in my 2 cents worth.
-The higher octane is not going to do a lick of good performance wise on an old low compression engine.
-If the tractor as said above mainly sits around then it is not seeing enough use to ever have valve issues from no lead fuel.
-Just fired up a truck we had sitting out back, it had not been touched in 12 years, dumped 5 gal of fresh gas into the 1/4 tank that was still in the truck and it ran fine.
-Swather, bale truck, generator, water pumps, vintage vehicles, etc around here are often only used once a year, sometimes once every 2-3 years yet they all fire up and run fine without any special additives or care.
According to our fuel supplier the stuff they deliver contains up to 10% ethanol.
So I do not know if it is a regional or climate thing or varying quality of fuel but no issues here.
P.S. All my vehicles sit outside all winter long with the battery's in them and I do not own a single battery maintainer yet the average life of a battery for us is 6-9 years.
Briar Hill Brittanys
Well-known Member
- Location
- Near Jasper, MO
"Various people 'here' do that with tractors and small engines (particularly snowblowers and generators) because you can't buy automobile gasoline with no ethanol in it due to EPA mandates."
Don't know about NJ, just bought 2 gallons of 92 octane no-ethanol premium here in Missouri. I'm amazed at the number of people that experience fuel problems, related to ethanol. I've never (knock on wood) had any of the hard start or other issues that get posted on here. That's zero problems with any of the gas fueled equipment we have. Tillers, mowers, tractor, lawn tractor, water pump, chain saws, splitter, etc. The tiller and splitter sit for months without being worked. The tiller will start on the 2nd or 3rd pull, the splitter on the 4th or 5th. Have to overcome the hydro fluid drag on the pump. Used to use regular in the chainsaws, when I bought a new Husky, it recommended no ethanol so that's what it gets.
Don't know about NJ, just bought 2 gallons of 92 octane no-ethanol premium here in Missouri. I'm amazed at the number of people that experience fuel problems, related to ethanol. I've never (knock on wood) had any of the hard start or other issues that get posted on here. That's zero problems with any of the gas fueled equipment we have. Tillers, mowers, tractor, lawn tractor, water pump, chain saws, splitter, etc. The tiller and splitter sit for months without being worked. The tiller will start on the 2nd or 3rd pull, the splitter on the 4th or 5th. Have to overcome the hydro fluid drag on the pump. Used to use regular in the chainsaws, when I bought a new Husky, it recommended no ethanol so that's what it gets.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
There is no such mandate. Some states, like New Jersey, have forced fuel distributors to add ethanol to all of their fuels, but that are also many states that do not require ethanol.
The real and true story is that all of this ethanol stuff came out of the Renewable Fuels Act of 2007. Feds mandated that a specific percentage of our fuels must come from renewable sources. That includes ALL fuels. Heating and industrial fuels as well as highway fuels. It was NOT mandated HOW this goal was to be reached, only that it MUST be reached.
The irony of it is that E10 fuel does not count towards that goal. E10 is basically overcapacity on the part of the producers. The real target was biodiesel and E85 fuels. E85 sales have been less than impressive.
The real and true story is that all of this ethanol stuff came out of the Renewable Fuels Act of 2007. Feds mandated that a specific percentage of our fuels must come from renewable sources. That includes ALL fuels. Heating and industrial fuels as well as highway fuels. It was NOT mandated HOW this goal was to be reached, only that it MUST be reached.
The irony of it is that E10 fuel does not count towards that goal. E10 is basically overcapacity on the part of the producers. The real target was biodiesel and E85 fuels. E85 sales have been less than impressive.
Dan Richardson
Member
There is a lot of misinformation going on here. The fact is that low compression engines do not benefit from high ocrain gas. Ask anyone in the antique car community. Gasoline before ethyl was around 50 octane. It also had no additives. So are we talking about old low compression engines or newer high compression engines. There is one answer to long storage of any gasoline engine. Drain the gas! Including the carb if it has one. Nothing else works as well. I'll be damned if I will let $5.00 worth of gas sit in a $4000 engine over the winter, period.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Thanks Jim! Why would anyone pay extra for high-octane fuel and put it in a very low compression engine!!! It seems more common all the time that people would rather believe myths and rumors than facts! For our Farmall C I buy the 87 octane with ethanol and then add a little diesel to lower the octane and reduce gas tank corrosion, and it starts and runs great, even after sitting 6 months with last years fuel!
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Horse feathers. What is it in 100LL that will burn pistons ? Pistons burn from detonation which is usually low octane fuel , too lean of air fuel mixture, too much spark advance and too hot operating temperature .
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Horse feathers. Premium fuel does not produce any more soot than regular gasoline when burning.
You maybe thinking of the bad old days when premium fuel had a very high lead composition. Lead does leave behind combustion deposits.
100LL as it says is low lead . Just enough lead to reduce exhaust valve and seat erosion. There is not enough lead to produce significant deposits to be concerned about.
My experience has been this. I have a MH with an absolutely stock F226 continental that I pull. I run 100LL in it for the sole reason of consistancy. Its been 2 years since I switched to the 100LL, I have not had to touch the carb.
Previous to this everytime I added gas, I would have to readjust to get it to run right. Hooked to a dyno, there is no measurable difference in max power between 87 pump gas and 100LL. But the carb had to be adjusted for every fill of 87 to get max power.
Also the 100LL is more resistant to boiling which I was having a problem with the 87. Full load on the dyno, and you can watch the gas boil in the sediment bowl.
Previous to this everytime I added gas, I would have to readjust to get it to run right. Hooked to a dyno, there is no measurable difference in max power between 87 pump gas and 100LL. But the carb had to be adjusted for every fill of 87 to get max power.
Also the 100LL is more resistant to boiling which I was having a problem with the 87. Full load on the dyno, and you can watch the gas boil in the sediment bowl.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
.
We use 100LL in occasional use equipment that spends most of it time in storage . The end of carburetor and storage problems .
Regular use small equipment is fuelled with premium unleaded. No more soft rotten rubber and plastic fuel system parts.
We use 100LL in occasional use equipment that spends most of it time in storage . The end of carburetor and storage problems .
Regular use small equipment is fuelled with premium unleaded. No more soft rotten rubber and plastic fuel system parts.
This is NOT true aviation has a much much longer shelf/ tank life than auto fuels, I got aviation gas in tanks of airplanes that was 10 yrs old and was as good as the day it was put in the tank for those that don't know aviation gas is not refined from crude anywhere near where auto gas is it is much higher up the latter.
GB in MN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas
Despite the wording of the title, the use of 100LL avgas in old tractors has nothing to do with the increased octane rating. However, the chemical additive package for avgas which makes it 100 octane, is part of the reason it is so stable, and has a much greater consistency that pump auto gas.
I've seen phase separation(Ethanol coming out of suspension) in auto gas left > 6 months in a humid enviro. This is a big, big problem as most gasket, seals, and other rubber compounds do not do well in a high Ethanol enviro. The percentage, and type of aeromatics left in auto gas would never be allowed in avgas, as the RVP would cause trouble at altitude.
One could say that avgas is a sweeter refinement. which helps last much longer than summer blend auto fuel.
I've seen phase separation(Ethanol coming out of suspension) in auto gas left > 6 months in a humid enviro. This is a big, big problem as most gasket, seals, and other rubber compounds do not do well in a high Ethanol enviro. The percentage, and type of aeromatics left in auto gas would never be allowed in avgas, as the RVP would cause trouble at altitude.
One could say that avgas is a sweeter refinement. which helps last much longer than summer blend auto fuel.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
100LL is much higher quality fuel, and much more care is taken to ensure its stability, because having an engine quit on an airplane is significantly more inconvenient than having an engine quit on a car.
For those who need a clearer picture painted, when an engine quits on an airplane, it falls out of the sky and someone usually dies.
They could make automotive fuel just as good, but nobody would pay $6/gallon, or whatever they're charging at the airport now.
Besides, can't buy 100LL around here. The airports around here will blow you in to Homeland Security as a terrorist for even asking.
For those who need a clearer picture painted, when an engine quits on an airplane, it falls out of the sky and someone usually dies.
They could make automotive fuel just as good, but nobody would pay $6/gallon, or whatever they're charging at the airport now.
Besides, can't buy 100LL around here. The airports around here will blow you in to Homeland Security as a terrorist for even asking.
Although fuel exhaustion, or mismanagement resulting in engine stoppage is very serious, it doesn't typically cause a fatal accident. But yes, it does happen sometimes.
Avgas prices run a very wide range based on where one buys it. In rural parts of TX and OK, it ranges $3.25-4.50. At large airports, in major metro areas it can go over $6/gal.
FBOs at airports are prohibited in most states from selling fuel in jerry cans, or putting it in a car. It's not Homeland security as much as EPA and DOT regs. They don't like avgas in cars as it messes up the emission systems. There are small airports that have unattended fuel islands, and if you can get inside the fence, you can buy all the avgas you can carry. Homeland security causes many serious problems, but if the airport guy is telling you that, he's lying about why he won't sell avgas.
On another note, I want to warn about the use of avgas in farm vehicles on a regular basis. 100LL contains tetra-ethyl lead in small quantities. Since exhaust on tractors is often primitive, and often blows from the stack directly in front of the operator, this raises a situation where the lead constituents from burning in the engine would be ingested in higher than normal quantity.
Lead research has a long history, going all the way back to the English using lead to form hats. This is where the expression 'mad as a hatter' comes from. They are not mad, as in angry, they are mad as in insane. Even very small amounts of lead in the human body cause irreparable harm. Lead is also not easily removed from the body once it's inside, and the effects are long term as well.
Of course, we all know that when a home is sold, a lead paint warning form must be filled out. Working behind a tractor, typically running rich, with leaded gas is a recipe for serious health issues that can't be reversed.
I would say that using small amounts of it, on a rare basis for stability would be ok, but try not to breath the exhaust fumes if you have a front mounted exhaust stack.
Lead research has a long history, going all the way back to the English using lead to form hats. This is where the expression 'mad as a hatter' comes from. They are not mad, as in angry, they are mad as in insane. Even very small amounts of lead in the human body cause irreparable harm. Lead is also not easily removed from the body once it's inside, and the effects are long term as well.
Of course, we all know that when a home is sold, a lead paint warning form must be filled out. Working behind a tractor, typically running rich, with leaded gas is a recipe for serious health issues that can't be reversed.
I would say that using small amounts of it, on a rare basis for stability would be ok, but try not to breath the exhaust fumes if you have a front mounted exhaust stack.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
100LL and JetA-1 all you want here. Pull into the airport parking lot. Carry the jerry cans through the gate between the parking lot and taxi way. Insert credit card into pump and fill up.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Do you know how much lead was in 1960's era leaded gasoline? Do you know how much lead there is in 100LL ? How many hours will you be spending down wind if that muffler.
While we can all agree on the fact that lead is and can be harmful, you are very misinformed as to the cause of mad hatter disease. The use of
MERCURY.....not lead was the cause of mercury poisoning that drove people who made the beaver felt hats crazy. Nothing at all to do with
lead. The similar disease happens when people use Mercury to gather the gold in mining operations when it is burned away. Mostly primitive
use in low income countries now.
MERCURY.....not lead was the cause of mercury poisoning that drove people who made the beaver felt hats crazy. Nothing at all to do with
lead. The similar disease happens when people use Mercury to gather the gold in mining operations when it is burned away. Mostly primitive
use in low income countries now.
It may surprise you to know that 80% of the aviation engines have about the same compression ratio as cars and tractors all of the engines designed to burn 87 OCT av gas were low compression the comp ration of a Lycoming O-360 180 hp consider high compression is 8.5 to 1
GB in MN
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