Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
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Are we as a nation really going to allow ourselves to become so divided that we will let a tragedy like this occur again?
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blue_tractor_man
Member
Thanks. My wife grew up right there. I've been to the battlefield many times.
lee little
Member
I hope not but we have already went further that way than I would like.
My GG Grandpaw?s oldest brother was killed at Shiloh, his body was never brought home, have discovered he was probably buried in a mass grave. Have copies from the National Archives on him, interesting fact is that his horse was valued at $200, that?s Confederate dollars. I can?t remember what his wife drew on his pension without going through the file cabinet. Any time someone wants to start a ?War between the States? topic or discussion I?m all in, studied it all my life...nothing was Civil about it and it shouldn?t be referenced that way regardless of which side your folks were on
pete black
Well-known Member
i live about 50 miles east in nw alabama. as a young family we would take our bikes there and ride the tour, neat place.
cumminspuller
Member
Very good read! I've been to Shiloh several times. Nice place to visit but when you are there and think about what happen there it does send chills down your spine.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
The slavery issue had more to do with southern growers undercutting northern prices than any moral issue. It therefore had a lot to do with the Civil War.
rockyridgefarm
Well-known Member
I guess you would say it was about property rights, eh? And since slaves were considered property... Freeing 4 million people from bondage would be a pretty expensive loss for 400,000 slaveovers.
Here, I'll let the dead speak for themselves -
http://www.civilwarcauses.org/quotes.htm
erskine2017
Member
Larry h, you must have been studying in Outer Mongolia to have such a limited and biased view of the Civil War!
Hey Dean, my paternal GG Grandaddy was at Vicksburg with the 42nd Ala Infantry, he was 44 yrs old at the time making him an old soldier, he was wounded there and family history told through the years was that his grandchildren liked sitting in his lap playing with his mangled ear, a minie ball had grazed him splitting his ear flesh, I have a Union canteen that I inherited that belonged to him, probably was a battlefield pickup as our Southern men carried wood canteens or gourds.
My great-grandpap was at Shiloh, and his Louisiana regiment was in the thick of things at the Hornet's Nest. He survived, and in fact served until the end of the war, with time-outs for a wound (Chickamauga) and a brief stint in a federal prison.
GGP was certainly not a slave owner. He was one of those who came into this world with nothing and left most of it to his descendants. I contend that he, like the vast majority of southern soldiers, were not fighting to preserve slavery. I am not so naive or uninformed as to suggest that slavery was not the underlying issue of the war, but it did not begin as a noble crusade to end slavery. Lincoln himself said, ?My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not to either save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union.....? The Emancipation Proclamation, issued in late 1862, had effect only in Union-held territory; it was a PR device Lincoln conceived as a means of providing a moral impetus to continue the bloody conflict.
I do not hold any regrets about the outcome of the war. In fact, I believe that if the South had won, poor southerners like my GGP might have found themselves as subjects of an aristocratic autocracy that would not have been to their liking. Horrible as it was, the war did serve notice to contemporary and future leaders that violent resistance to real or perceived tyranny is always a possibility.
GGP was certainly not a slave owner. He was one of those who came into this world with nothing and left most of it to his descendants. I contend that he, like the vast majority of southern soldiers, were not fighting to preserve slavery. I am not so naive or uninformed as to suggest that slavery was not the underlying issue of the war, but it did not begin as a noble crusade to end slavery. Lincoln himself said, ?My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not to either save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union.....? The Emancipation Proclamation, issued in late 1862, had effect only in Union-held territory; it was a PR device Lincoln conceived as a means of providing a moral impetus to continue the bloody conflict.
I do not hold any regrets about the outcome of the war. In fact, I believe that if the South had won, poor southerners like my GGP might have found themselves as subjects of an aristocratic autocracy that would not have been to their liking. Horrible as it was, the war did serve notice to contemporary and future leaders that violent resistance to real or perceived tyranny is always a possibility.
rockyridgefarm
Well-known Member
Jerry,
Your first post talked about how great it would have been if the south had won. This post is very different from that post. Where do you actually stand?
The War was about slavery without question. There are many that take a revisionist view on history because they're ashamed of what the confederacy stood for, as they should rightly be. Several southern states had slave populations HIGHER than the free population. So much so that they wanted to use the slaves as "three fifths" of a vote to get more power in the federal government.
I've heard this claim that slavery was on its way out on its own in the south, but no one has ever given me a reasonable scenerio on how this would have come about. Can you give a reasonable way the south would have freed the slaves on their own accord?
Married2Allis
Well-known Member
We are fighting a civil war again as we speak 166 years later for something similar -- our way of life as we now know it.
Rocky, I?m jumping in on behalf of JerryS, he is spot on, I
guess you haven?t read thoroughly accurate accounts and
documents of this time period, Slavery was not the factual
cause of this conflict, in fact Lincoln never even freed a single
slave in the Northern states, the Emancipation Proclamation is
not understood by many, folks think that when Lincoln
conceived it and freed the Southern black man in the wording
of this proclamation that it was the greatest thing of all time,
duh.....he didn?t care about slaves and in fact slave labor
continued on with construction of the US Capital during the
war, General Grant had slaves and didn?t release them til
after Lee surrendered at Appomattox, and Lee never owned a
slave, he inherited his father in laws slaves and he
emancipated them before the war. Many slave owners were in
Northern states and Lincoln didn?t want to rock the boat with
them. In my family tree I have documented 78 Confederate
ancestors, Grandaddys, Uncles, Cousins and not one of them
ever owned a slave, my wife?s family has 50+ Confederate
ancestors as well, no slave ownership, there is no way in heck
our dirt poor farmers, and sharecroppers went to war for a rich
man to have a better life, I?m a descendant of several
indentured servants that came to America for a better life so
you might say I?m a direct descendant of slavery , I give
thanks to my heritage everyday and hate to see it trampled on
by revisionist history
guess you haven?t read thoroughly accurate accounts and
documents of this time period, Slavery was not the factual
cause of this conflict, in fact Lincoln never even freed a single
slave in the Northern states, the Emancipation Proclamation is
not understood by many, folks think that when Lincoln
conceived it and freed the Southern black man in the wording
of this proclamation that it was the greatest thing of all time,
duh.....he didn?t care about slaves and in fact slave labor
continued on with construction of the US Capital during the
war, General Grant had slaves and didn?t release them til
after Lee surrendered at Appomattox, and Lee never owned a
slave, he inherited his father in laws slaves and he
emancipated them before the war. Many slave owners were in
Northern states and Lincoln didn?t want to rock the boat with
them. In my family tree I have documented 78 Confederate
ancestors, Grandaddys, Uncles, Cousins and not one of them
ever owned a slave, my wife?s family has 50+ Confederate
ancestors as well, no slave ownership, there is no way in heck
our dirt poor farmers, and sharecroppers went to war for a rich
man to have a better life, I?m a descendant of several
indentured servants that came to America for a better life so
you might say I?m a direct descendant of slavery , I give
thanks to my heritage everyday and hate to see it trampled on
by revisionist history
Married2Allis
Well-known Member
It was about slavery decades before. In March 1861, Alexander H. Stephens the Vice President of the CSA said so and declared this in the March 21st Savannah Republcan:
“The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us, the proper status of the n_gro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the ‘rock upon which the old Union would split.’ He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact ...”
Thomas Jefferson saw it coming. The tide got rolled.
“The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us, the proper status of the n_gro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the ‘rock upon which the old Union would split.’ He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact ...”
Thomas Jefferson saw it coming. The tide got rolled.
rockyridgefarm
Well-known Member
Every war is so a rich man can have a better life. This country’s rich men want to take that country’s wealth in order to give him more.
I do want to rephrase what I said about being ashamed of the cause. You are right that it was pitched to the average man that it was about states rights. Pride in country is the easiest way to get young men to march. Many a soldier fought and died for what they thought was the true reason for the war. Their ancestors can be proud of them for that. No southerner should be ashamed of that. BUT, most times what is pitched to the soldiers is NOT what the war is about. The civil war was and still is pitched as a fight over states rights, and it sort of was. Unfortunately, the “right” that they were fighting for was the “right” to keep slaves. As I said, several southern states had populations that were more slaves than free people. How exactly were those rich slave owners going to let off of their property?
johnofnewhaven
Well-known Member
I think rockyridgefarms meant larryh not you Jerry.
Kansasredneck
Member
The same reason the backs of many groves are full of old machinery. The stuff isn't necessarily broke, just better things came along.
In the case of the slaves who did not want to work, eventually free Irish, Italians, and other immigrants hungry for work would have presented themselves. They would have worked through the time needed to plant or harvest, then, being free, and not slaves, been laid off until the next period of need. During that time, the plantation owner would not have needed to feed nor house them.
Consider what would have happened if there had been no European and American slave trade. Think about the blacks who were enslaved in Africa. What would have been their fate?
In the case of the slaves who did not want to work, eventually free Irish, Italians, and other immigrants hungry for work would have presented themselves. They would have worked through the time needed to plant or harvest, then, being free, and not slaves, been laid off until the next period of need. During that time, the plantation owner would not have needed to feed nor house them.
Consider what would have happened if there had been no European and American slave trade. Think about the blacks who were enslaved in Africa. What would have been their fate?
Kansasredneck
Member
War of Northern aggression? The south fired the first shots. Ft Sumner was Federal Property, and thus belonged to all the people, northern and southern alike. As to state's rights, the south was against state's rights, demanding that the federal government make the northern states return fugitive slaves. The south also enslaved freedmen with out right.
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