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New wheel bolts black oxide etc

R

rtoni

Member
Probably overthinking this - replacing wheel bolts.

I m looking at online eg Grainger or McMaster and they have just about anything for hex bolts - although I don t know where anything is actually made any more. I see a bunch of different options available - plain steel, black oxide, yellow zinc etc.

I m thinking if I clean up and grease / never-seize some of the original wheel bolts on one side (came off pretty easy and look good) they should be fine as original equipment being put back on. The other side (where I broke one bolt) they were all tough to break loose and all look crappy. So these will be replaced but I m just curious - is the extra spend on zinc plated bolts all around really adding much value, if I grease them up anyway? And recheck / re-torque etc on a regular basis? Does black oxide or zinc option on a bolt really make that much difference in the real world of old tractors?
 
No external appearance makes any difference. Lug bolts/studs have been un-plated from the beginning of their use. What does matter is toughness. This is not the same as hardness. So all bolts sold (and labeled as such) for wheel use are tough. General purpose bolts with the same shape are not. Grades between 7 and 8 are commonly used in this application. Jim
 
All the coating does is offer a level of corrosion resistance and
cosmetics. Stainless offers the best corrosion resistance, but that would
not work for lug bolts as stainless is prone to seize and gall under high
loads.

Do make sure the bolts are the correct hardness grade.

Also, if these are the bolts holding the wheel to the hub or axle flange
be sure the bolt head is compatible with design of the wheel face. If the
face is flat then standard bolts may work, but if the holes are
countersunk or counterbored, they need the matching bolts to fit and
center the wheel.

Look closely at the original bolts, the replacements must be the same
configuration.
 
Thanks for the replies. The wheels are flat face, the bolts also have a lock washer as well as part of the original equipment. Grainger seems to refer to almost the entire collection of hex bolts like this (flat head hex) as "hex head cap screws". That name sounds like a "light" fastener but the details seem to be what I need? Sometimes cap screw and bolt come up in conversations where people are talking about the same thing.
https://www.grainger.ca/en/product/CAPSCREW-10-9-MF-M16-1-5X40%2C25-PK/p/EBP25DK05
 
Black oxide, whether you have a show tractor or
manure pit tractor, will rust. Plated with the color of
your choice, with copious amounts of never-seize,
is the best thing for lug bolts.
 
Do not use split lock washers. Use a heavy (thick) flatwasher, and Locktite thread lock. The difference between a cap screw (in the language of the industry) is that a cap screw is used in threaded holes, and a bolt is used with a nut. Thus head bolts are cap screws in industry terms. Yours, if with nuts, are bolts. but purchasing cap screws and using them as bolts is just fine. Jim
 
Thanks Jim for the sanity check. I m bad for taking something that should be uncomplicated and making it complicated



This post was edited by rtoni on 11/19/2022 at 11:30 am.
 
(quoted from post at 11:38:52 11/19/22) Black oxide, whether you have a show tractor or
manure pit tractor, will rust. Plated with the color of
your choice, with copious amounts of never-seize,
is the best thing for lug bolts.
Click to expand...
Can t say for sure that I ll never end up in a pile of sh$t but show tractor is definitely not on my radar
 


So far as the washers go you can't go by what you are taking off. As Steve posted the washers need to be compatible with the face. Some lug bolts take a conical washer.
 

For the record, he is going by what the parts book for his tractor calls for. The MF205 uses metric hex head cap screws and split lock washers.
 
(quoted from post at 15:30:24 11/19/22)
For the record, he is going by what the parts book for his tractor calls for. The MF205 uses metric hex head cap screws and split lock washers.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't see that. Only that he was looking at Grainger and McMaster.
 
Thought this might be interesting to those who regularly fight with wheel lug bolts.

I tear up front wheels, and hubs, on my front end loader. Either the wheel centers crack, or the bolt holes wallow out and the thread in the hub is damaged.

When this happens, I remachine the hub to accept wheel studs.

mvphoto99535.jpg
This was partially, if not wholly, caused by the previous owner ruining the threads, and securing the wheel with lug bolts tightened against a nut on the backside. Every hole was cracked. This is also a highly abused tractor. We feed with it.

mvphoto99536.jpg
I mill the backside to create flats that will accept a stud.

mvphoto99537.jpg
Then I bore the holes to the knurl diameter for the stud.

mvphoto99538.jpg
Studs go in.

mvphoto99539.jpg
Then I make a new wheel center that I'm pretty confident won't break again.
 
Farmersamm - that s very cool. Thanks for sharing the pics. Nice job.
What I wouldn t give for a garage / shop tools etc and to learn how to do all that stuff. This tractor I picked up wasn t beat up too bad, but I think some things (like wheels) could have used a bit more attention. I fight with it now out in the yard in the weather, and that gets old real fast.
Anyway thanks for sharing the details and the inspirational post.
 
mvphoto99540.jpg
Center the new disc.

And weld it up. I prefer stick, but I'd imagine that dual shield would do just as well

mvphoto99541.jpg


mvphoto99542.jpg


Then it goes back to workhttps://youtu.be/noGWjx1rngM

It's at its worst when the mud dries up, and you're fighting deep ruts. Really hard on front ends, but it is what it is I guess.

Anyways, it's an alternative that some guys might find to be an option on this old iron.
 
Yes, that part is missing here, having the background of the problem would help. I remembered he had posted about having a broken lug bolt a few days ago and that I had posted the (MF 205) parts book page for him, which shows hex head capscrews and lock washers as original equipment.

While there are other ways to hold the wheel on that the manufacturer's method, in this case he is following the book. If he isn't going to get the M16 "Wheel retaining bolts" and lock washers form Massey Ferguson, there are many options he can consider, as evidenced by the replies thus far.

I would use plated cap screws to lessen rusting. I would likely use grade 10.9, even though he said he found a 7 on some of them.

If I was going to use a "flat" washer I would consider using the metric conical spring washers (which work as lock washers), unless I chose to weld the washer to the rim to reduce the worn hole size. In that case I would use a heavy metric oversize washer (and the cap screws might need to be longer to have full engagement in the threaded holes). McMaster offers a selection of both types.

A blue thread locker will not hurt, regardless of the washer type used. A good coating of the thread locker on both, the cap screws and the hub threads, will keep moisture from the threads and prevent rusting (sometimes better than anti-seize. JMHO

This post was edited by Jim.ME on 11/20/2022 at 04:37 am.
 
Maybe I should have added this bolt type topic to the end of the previous thread for more context. Sorry about that. In any case the feedback is excellent and much appreciated.
 
(quoted from post at 11:10:38 11/20/22) Maybe I should have added this bolt type topic to the end of the previous thread for more context. Sorry about that. In any case the feedback is excellent and much appreciated.
Click to expand...

It generally is good practice to fill in just what one is working on, even if they recently posted about it in another post. Many people go through here with many issues and not always on the same machine. I just happened to remember the conversation from the other day, others didn't thus you get info that does not apply to yours.
 
(quoted from post at 05:35:07 11/20/22)

I would use plated cap screws to lessen rusting. I would likely use grade 10.9, even though he said he found a 7 on some of them.

If I was going to use a "flat" washer I would consider using the metric conical spring washers (which work as lock washers), unless I chose to weld the washer to the rim to reduce the worn hole size. In that case I would use a heavy metric oversize washer (and the cap screws might need to be longer to have full engagement in the threaded holes). McMaster offers a selection of both types.

A blue thread locker will not hurt, regardless of the washer type used. A good coating of the thread locker on both, the cap screws and the hub threads, will keep moisture from the threads and prevent rusting (sometimes better than anti-seize. JMHO

This post was edited by Jim.ME on 11/20/2022 at 04:37 am.
Click to expand...

Couple more questions:
- Will a moderate about of heat be enough to loosen up the thresh locker if / when I need to pull the wheel off?
- The conical spring washers - would "point" inwards towards rim, or other way around?
- McMaster sells steel and zinc plated conical washers. Zinc option is apparently a bit weaker than the steel, from their description "Steel washers are stronger and more wear resistant than zinc-plated steel and stainless steel.". Which way would you go for the washers?
Thanks again.
 
(quoted from post at 11:53:55 11/20/22)
(quoted from post at 05:35:07 11/20/22)

I would use plated cap screws to lessen rusting. I would likely use grade 10.9, even though he said he found a 7 on some of them.

If I was going to use a "flat" washer I would consider using the metric conical spring washers (which work as lock washers), unless I chose to weld the washer to the rim to reduce the worn hole size. In that case I would use a heavy metric oversize washer (and the cap screws might need to be longer to have full engagement in the threaded holes). McMaster offers a selection of both types.

A blue thread locker will not hurt, regardless of the washer type used. A good coating of the thread locker on both, the cap screws and the hub threads, will keep moisture from the threads and prevent rusting (sometimes better than anti-seize. JMHO

This post was edited by Jim.ME on 11/20/2022 at 04:37 am.
Click to expand...

Couple more questions:
- Will a moderate about of heat be enough to loosen up the thresh locker if / when I need to pull the wheel off?
- The conical spring washers - would "point" inwards towards rim, or other way around?
- McMaster sells steel and zinc plated conical washers. Zinc option is apparently a bit weaker than the steel, from their description "Steel washers are stronger and more wear resistant than zinc-plated steel and stainless steel.". Which way would you go for the washers?
Thanks again.
Click to expand...

You should be able to loosen blue (medium strength, removable) thread locker without heat.

The "point" of the cone will be the center hole. put that under the capscrew head so that the head has to squeeze the point down to the rim, that puts force out on the washer.

I wopuld use zinc, like the bolts.
 
(quoted from post at 13:15:32 11/20/22) grease and anti sieze on the same bolt?
Click to expand...

No grease or anti seize on any fastener where thread locker is used. Threads should be degreased with something like brake cleaner.

Most old-time operators on cranes, shovels, excavators, and dozers (with manual adjusters), I worked around, would not use anti seize as it will dry out in some applications. They wanted grease, coated the adjusters then wrapped the adjusters with grease ladened rags, which they wired in place. Their adjusters could always be turned. A few would mix grease or oil with the anti-seize to keep it from drying out as soon. Some that newer guys just used anti-seize on would be stuck. So grease and anti-seize on the same fastener isn't bad, in my opinion.

This post was edited by Jim.ME on 11/20/2022 at 01:36 pm.
 
Comparing zinc yellow chromate plated 10.9 bolts with zinc plated 8.8 bolts (both m16x1.5 x 40mm) it turns out the 10.9 are actually a few pennies less than the 8.8. Just a curiosity.

Anyway I have the bolts, conical washers, and other item(s) in the cart and will order today. I opted for 40mm vs the original equipment 35 to compensate for thicker washer material without too much excess bolt threading out the back side of the hub and just collecting mud and crap and rust.
 
Well.
McMaster cancelled my order (won t ship to Canada)
Grainger Canada has what I need but backordered - few weeks eta
Fastenal won t sell to public - no walk-ins period
Local heavy equip dealer, equipment supply, TSC etc (the ones I checked so far) don t stock M16x1.5 thread. Lots of M16x2.0
Other various online fastener outlets in Canada have bolts but don t stock conical washers
A few US online sites have what I need but shipping across the border is crazy expensive.

I ll probably go with Grainger and just wait till I get the parts.
They have a thick conical washer 17mm x 39mm x 4mm thick which I assume is plenty beefy enough for these rims. But they want $6.30 each.!?! There are some less expensive Belleville / spring washers but only half the thickness.

Why do I feel like this is much more aggravation than it should be? Or that I shouldn t have to spent @$80 for a dozen heavy cone washers? Should I use a lighter washer?

Sorry for dragging out this conversation. Really just wanna get this done.
 
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