O/T Farm Subsidies

Time to rattle some cages:

In an earlier post, Jim from PA posted this:

I was sitting on my tractor thinking about what this guy hade to say -

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

~~~ The late Dr. Adrian Rogers , 1931 to 2005 ~~~
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(The next comments are mine - jhilyer)

Theses lines caught my attention:
"What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else."

So what's everybody's take on farm subsidies? How do they jive with the preceding quote?

- jhilyer

At least they are getting back some of what they are paying (taxes).

The sludge you are supporting are only a one way valve. My take anyway.


Dave

There are many who insist on farm subsidies and at the same time, preach the virtues of capitalism. Seems to me the two are mutually exclusive. Many of the biggest recipients of farm subsidy payments, like to rail against welfare. Per individual, are there any other welfare recipients that are better funded by our government than the farmer?

Farmers provide food for the rest of the country. What do your welfare recipients provide other than more of themselves????????

Dave

The government of any nation will keep law and order ONLY with cheap food. We have the cheapest, safest food supply in the world and the government (we the people) want to keep it that way.
To do accomplish this, the government wants the farmer to take care of his land and to produce the crops that are beneficial to the nation.
Many of us did not live during the dirty thirties and the conservation movement to follow, but this is where it all started.
Nobody holds a gun to your head and says you have to take the payments, but if you want them, you have to jump through all the government hoops. For example, you can no longer drain a pot hole or dig a stock pond or dike a waterway or bury tile without getting an OK from five different government employees. The government has their hand in all we do on the land, and worst of all they meddle in our grain markets constantly. In the past, they have even embargoed our grain, our livelihood, for political reasons. As of late they are jerking around policies on the ethanol industry which most farmers have invested in directly or indirectly after promises of a bright future as an energy industry we could benefit from at every hometown mainstreet level.
I say the farm payments are almost always a trade off for letting the government tell us what we can and can't do. As soon as they get out of farming then I'll refuse the payment.
But for now, I'll not only take the payment but I deserve the payment in trade for all they do to keep us under their thumb. It's not free money, we give up many freedoms in trade and it's owed to us as payment. We can only be glad its done by baiting us with this carrot on a stick for now until the US actually becomes the Socialist or Communist country the lazy parasites of this country want us to be.

All they are is a tax refund. When the government gets out of farming and the chicago board of trade is closed down putting the paper traders out of business, then I will quit taking subsidies.

As a life long farmer I agree and don't take or want gov't payments.Farming should be no different than any other business or job succeed on your own or find something else to do and leave it to those that can make a living at it.

I have about 70 acres of row crop land. My total "Subsidy" last year was $316. That's about $4.50 per acre. Not getting rich off that am I.

We have always had a "cheap food policy". People dont gripe as much when their bellies are full. I dont know if the politicians are aware of this, but I think it's deliberate.

As far as justifying farm subsidys. Do you want to keep the US fully in control of our food supply? Or would you rather get our food from countries who hate us like we do our oil?


Gene

(quoted from post at 14:41:16 02/09/09) As a life long farmer I agree and don't take or want gov't payments.Farming should be no different than any other business or job succeed on your own or find something else to do and leave it to those that can make a living at it.

Click to expand...

Traditional Farmer,... I agree with you 100%.
I've never taken a penny in farm subsidies either, and like you, I think farming should be treated as any "other business" and it will succeed (or fail) on it's own merits without government intervention.

Looking around at all my neighbors,... it's pretty obvious that "you and I" (and only a handfull of others) must be a dying breed.

You probaly pull the scab off too don't ya!! Are ya sure you want to tug on that thread? To late to put the finger in hole in the dike now.

Walfare is like beauty, only in the eyes of the beholder. I don't farm, but make my living pretty much off the farmers.

Alot of honest farmers will tell you that it is walfare at its biggest. It in turn has affected our comunity for sure. They own two semi tractors, haul corn and beans directly to the river.

They buy their crop inputs direct, and elimate our town's people. They vacation away from here as well.

They have put the small farmer out of business also. In our town we hear the bad remarks made about farmers walfare all the time, that is why some refuse to burn gas with corn products in them.

Remarks are made like we want cheap food so pay the farmer walfare. It is viewed in the rural towns as .......I'm going to cut my food expences so I'm taking the wife out for supper so I don't have to buy groceries.

If anyone is wondering about who gets what, just google EWG farm subsities, click on your state, (on map)then enter your county. It is said, and I have never looked myself, but the top ten farmers in Clayton County Iowa get more than --ALL the welfare combined.

EWG is broke down on how much each year, and I have been told they are trying to indicate the ones getting a piece of pie in all corners of their mouth by makining corperations, putting the wifes name seperate etc.

What a country we live in, No one gives back a check from the government and we certianly won't hand back the new checks we are going to be getting. And we will all continue to complain about the other guys getting a free ride.

I would be intrested to know what the average check on this board is for hand outs, and very concerned as to the amount of complaining about walfare as compared to their check size.

There is a (mean spirited) formula in our coffee shop, it has to do with the new pickup, car, tractor, combines, and semis compared to the walfare checks. I've read it a few times, but can't remember, but refers to the (amount of complaining so no one notices their check amounts)

Our old neighbor always said, those of us that have been blessed are offended by those who haven't been.

For all of us that complain about everyone else getting handouts, we are the same ones who complained to mom and dad that our brothers and sisters always got more than us as well.

I have numerous friends that get the checks, they are the butt of our jokes, they admit that it is a handout or walfare that is a sad cry from a joke. They return the slams to me also, no one gets mad.

But I can tell you this much, the ones getting the checks are the first to complain about a child getting food on his plate. They don't believe in abortion, but don't belive in feeding a child once the mother gives birth.

Train, bus, supermarkets, Wallmarts, airlines, coal mines, manufacturing plants of any type - all get tax incentives, govt paid infrastructure, and outright payoffs to build, relocate, or continue.

Subsidies are a normal way of life for any industry in the USA.

Why should agriculture be any different?

Most farmers agree, they are bad, and would be better off without them. But if they are there, you can't hardly afford _not_ to collect them - can't compete with the other farmers if you don't.

Back in the 1960s, and again in the 1970s, the USA govt applied tarriffs and baned grain exports from the USA to willing buyers. This totally crashed the farm ecconomy. Perhaps you weren't around for that, or didn't pay attention to it. Life on the farm was forever changed when the govt meddled in farm business, and forced our buyers to turn to South America and spend money on developing _their_ grain markets. Buyers saw that the USA was not a dependable seller of grain, using it for political reasons.

No government wants to see food as undependable, andf the USA govt cut out our buyers for no reason.

Since that time, the govt has been involved in 'supporting' agriculture in the USA.

It is not good, but it is what we are left with.

Tell you what, I'm all for free ag markets again, no govt support. You make the USA govt promise they never hurt our markets like that _ever_ again, and we all will be happy to get away from the govt red tape.

Most of today's farm subsidies are tied to environmental issues, and are not much for direct handouts. One needs to jump through many, many EPA type of hoops to quailify for the govt progams, and any more the subsidies are just a way to control agriculture.

Depending on how much of this you understand & agree with, you will get many farmers that totally agree with you: eliminate the subsidies and red tape and just let us farm and just let us _sell_ our crops.

Would be wonderful. I'm game for it!

--->Paul

If I don't take it, they will buy condoms for teenagers.

how many in the US refused to cash their stimulus check from GW Bush? very few is my guess. Many of you would take it if you could get it. We need a floor support for prices thats why they were established, gov. programs have gotten out of hand I agree. I would not be against set a side acres again. Do you know who the biggest lobbiers were against s.a. acres? Cargill and the other grain thiefs, their lobbyists dictate farm policy for the most part.

The rationale behind farm subsidies is price stability. If you want to know what happens if you have true free-market agriculture, read "The Worst Hard Time", by Timothy Egan. It's a history of the Dust Bowl, which was brought about by a combination of poor farming practices and plummeting grain prices.

Of course, as soon as politics get involved the original purpose of any legislation is lost.

Farm subsidies have done a reasonably good job of keeping production up and prices stable. Farm subsidies have NOT preserved family farming, but that was never their intent.

I was in Iowa one time listening to a radio station in Des Moines.They were talking about who was getting farm subsidy payments,and how much,for how many acres.It turns out movie stars,congressmen,corporations were getting more government subsidy(paid not to grow corn)than actual farmers,by a lot.Lots of the names are people that you know are rich.Some even got money and it was questionable if you could even farm their land like a steep side of a mountain or desert that wouldnt even be considered a farm.

Hey Mark -

This is a little off the main topic, and I don"t disagree with you on the "food price stabilization" point, but my Dad was born in West Texas in 1929, lived through the Dust Bowls and thought that Egan"s book was a sensationalistic piece of garbage.

There were sure some hard times, and Dad"s family didn"t have any money at all during those times, but it really made him mad to read some of the idiotic anecdotes that guy put into print - just to sell copies...

I guess it worked, with the prizes he won and all, but it just makes me more leery about believing everything or anything I read...



Howard

I have neighbor's that are gettting 200K - 500K per year. They have lots of shiny green tractors and combines.

Price stability? Well its a complete failure at that with corn going from around $8 bushel last year down to around $3 then up then down.

I hate to bust your bubble,but depending on what you eat,you get lots of food from other countries.You might even get most of it except grain and meat.Apples,grapes,lettuce,any kind of ripe fresh food can come from all over the world.Mostly Mexico,and lots from California,but depending on whats ripe and where,it could be lots of places besides the United States.Also the FDA is not what it was,and if we dont keep an eye on them crooks in Washington DC will have meat from other more risky for mad cow countries here too,if they dont now.Thats why food needs country of origin labeling and other safety measures need to be taken or we all might die eating food thats poisoned because some corporation pays off an inspector so they dont have to fix the roof that leaks when it rains on a peanut processing plant.I bet it would make you sick to know just how much sickness and death is caused from food now.Its probably most of it.That cheap food policy has put a lot of farmers out of business with artificial low prices to where its not much of a point nowdays.Farming is a lot different than it was 40 years ago."Cheap food"is not so cheap if you work for minimum wage,or like a slave in another country.You would have a different view if you had to make a living on your 70 tillable acres.Getting all of our food from other countries is not because we wont grow it here,you wont be able to afford it.Its already getting that way.You might afford some old Argentinan beef that is tough and lean.Some old green apples from South America or some place,but the good stuff will get shipped out to rich people in other countries.Unless you can grow it,you wont get it,wont even get a chance at it.Just like everything else,foreigners own more of our food supply chain every day.With the FDA looking the other way,or so underfunded they cant enforce our laws,its a real possibility we could all be in danger of getting sick from our food supply.They might tell you,or maybe not,who knows?I know this much,it depends on how many they think will die from it.If say 10 might die,they might act like they dont know what did it and see if they get away with it.If a million might die,it would be cheaper for them to take bankruptcy and close down.

Cheap food has to come from a surplus and the best guarentee to having cheap food is to subsidize the production of food so that producers can operated at or below the cost of production.

Its the city folks who pay most of the taxes, not us. Cheap corn and subsidized water in the west is the most efficient way to ensure that all commodities are in surplus.

Trad,

I did say "reasonably good". Yes, the prices did go through the roof for a couple of years before dropping in the past few months. But do you think the price excursions would have been better or worse without subsidies? And for the record, it was the $8/bushel corn that was the aberration, not the drop to $3.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of subsidies. I was stating the intent of subsidies; you are free to draw your own conclusions as to whether they actually improve price stability.

There are all kinds of "hidden" subsidies that most people don't realize. Off-road farm diesel isn't taxed, that's a subsidy. You don't pay sales tax on ag related purchases. The NRCS helps to pay for land improvements,ie waterways, terraces, ponds, drainage, etc., to make your farmground more productive. Farmers can haul ungodly amounts of weight in grain wagons and manure tankers, thereby tearing up the roads without having to pay road use taxes. And then the farmers that do have trucks that do actually pay some tax, every fall they increase the weight limits so they can get the record harvest hauled to town without having to buy heavier permits.

Howard,

With all due respect, if your dad was born in '29, he can hardly have many memories of the Dust Bowl.

For what it's worth, I don't remember many folks talking about the Dust Bowl when I was growing up, even though most of the adults I knew has some experience of it. My own mom and dad were born in '24 and '25, and grew up on the periphery of the Bowl, although in different states. They talked a lot about the Depression, but very little about the Dust Bowl. In retrospect, I think this was because they weren't in the middle of it, but also because I really think folks blocked it out. I can't ask them now, Dad passed over twenty years ago and Mom has Alzheimer's. I did talk briefly about it with my uncle, who is pushing 90; he would only say that it was very bad.

If you don't believe that people blocked out the bad times back then, here's something to chew on: My grandfather committed suicide in 1929. My mother did not know that he killed himself until she got a copy of his birth certificate about ten years ago. The family simply did not discuss the manner of his death.

I'm sure Egan picked out some of the worst examples of the suffering and devastation, but they were horrifying enough that I would hate to think that they were commonplace.

I used to regularly drive through Springfield, Colorado on a regular basis. Anyone familiar with the area will tell you that it is sparsely populated grassland. But in the twenties, it was productive farmland and a lot of people lived in the area. It has not returned to what it once was, even seventy years after the dust bowl ended.

Don'tcha know... it's only WELFARE when SOMEONE else is getting the cheque...

Rod

Seems like the tone of the replys here are mostly anti-subsidy and or anti-farmer. I'll tell you what. All of you that are so down on these subsidys why dont you just trot down to your local banker and borrow about 2-3 million?
That would get you about 500 acres and just the basic machinery to work it. That way you can cash in on the subsidy gravy train too! I mean after all it's a free country. If you want to do something bad enough it is there for the taking.


Gene

He was 7 when this very famous picture was snapped of a place about 40 miles from his farm:

<a href="http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p268/case600lp/?action=view&current=cimarron_ok.jpg" target="_blank"> </a>

He lived south of Stratford at the time, and was six when this hit Stratford:

<a href="http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p268/case600lp/?action=view&current=theb1365.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

Our farm is in the lower center of this bullseye:

<a href="http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p268/case600lp/?action=view&current=dustbowl2b.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

He was the youngest kid in the family and knew exactly what his folks and sisters went through. I've farmed over old fence rows for years with him, pulling pieces of barbed wire out of tires, from where the dirt storms blew tumbleweeds against the fences, and then they'd bury under the sand several feet deep... So I know firsthand some of the devastation that has left behind for the years since...

Much of the reason the population left was land was practically given away in the late 1800's/early 1900's and many "prospectors" heard fabulous tales of how easy it was to strike it rich farming, so people flocked to the area almost like a gold rush in the very early days.

In those days, you'd be doing good to really take care of a farm of 160 acres, so there were homesteads all over the place everyone with their little plot.

A lot of that land between Springfield CO and Boise City, OK should have never been broken out, so it is good that a lot of it has gone back to grass.

Plus, I was farming 3,000 acres when I got out a few years ago - and I was an average sized farmer for this area. The guy that is farming the land I leased is now farming right at 10,000. So mechanization very naturally and very DRASTICALLY reduced the # of people required to operate the land. ESPECIALLY compared to those days.

Plus, I know of one of the guys that "showed Egan around" here in the Panhandle and he was just as good at self-promotion as Egan wanted to be...

So you get a "windy" guy eager to spin some yarns and an "eager" guy searching for some juicy stories and they both got what they wanted... So what if the truth got stretched pretty bad.


Dad has lived out here all his life, so I'd guess he has more memories of it than Egan ever did...

Howard

In some rural areas, Taxes on farmland comprise 90% of property tax base. To pay for schools, fire Protection, local streets, country roads, Police.(You will notice I would never Police & Protection in the same sentence) As to license fees you can't compare tandem axle miles to haul grain to someone who halls rock 5 days a week year round.
led

(quoted from post at 21:09:48 02/09/09) Seems like the tone of the replys here are mostly anti-subsidy and or anti-farmer. [color=red:14fea3c8e6][b:14fea3c8e6]I'll tell you what. All of you that are so down on these subsidys why dont you just trot down to your local banker and borrow about 2-3 million?
That would get you about 500 acres and just the basic machinery to work it. That way you can cash in on the subsidy gravy train too! I mean after all it's a free country. If you want to do something bad enough it is there for the taking.[/b:14fea3c8e6][/color:14fea3c8e6]


Gene

Click to expand...

Is that how you did it Gene????

I had to bust my butt working construction (for 30+ years) to pay for my farm, and I've never drawn a cent in subsidies, nor owned ANY new farm equipment.
Maybe it's just a matter of "pride" on my part, but the less I have to do with the government, the better I like it.

I know for a fact, that the "big" farmers that are my neighbors, have recieved anywhere from $350,000.00 to a little over $1,000,000.00 in subsidies over the last 10 years, and they are the biggest complainers I've ever seen,.... but they have new farm equipment, new pickups, new homes, and new 5th. wheel RV's. :roll:

We have to register as a farm over here now. We've been breeding horses for about 10 years now on our own. We pay full price for everything including fuel (about 80% tax on fuel and 19% sales tax on everything else). We have rented property and pay the insurance for the case that someone gets hurt on the place, have the horses insured in case they get out, pay a fee for each animal in case it dies so that it can be picked up. Pay taxes on each animal because we did it as a hobby, not to avoid registering, but because we couldn't rake up the minimum amount of land required because of a couple of local farmers sucking up everything available to add to their subsidies. FF now, we bought 2 small pieces and built a run in shelter the size of 3 stalls on one and 2 on the other. A farmer can build up 10 100 sq mtr (100+/- sq ft) on his property without a problem. A farmer gets his farm fuel at a little under half the pump price, pays 7% tax on everything farm related, receive 150-300 bucks an acre, and a few other things. My 2 buildings total 450 sq ft+/- and I am told to tear them down or register as a farmer.
Am I gonna take advantage of te perks of being a farmer? You bet your sweet a$$ I am. I'll be a money pit for them because we aren't big enough to give anything back.

Dave

Howard,

Thanks for sharing your stories. Believe me, I have great respect for anyone who went through both the Depression and the Dust Bowl.

I'm curious; which parts of Egan's book did your dad think were sensationalistic? Either these events happened or they didn't: Ceilings collapsing because of the weight of dust in the attic, babies dying because of dust inhalation, farmers feeding salted tumbleweed to their cattle.

My mom grew up in Oklahoma, and she always despised "The Grapes of Wrath". She didn't like the way the Okies were pictured as ignorant, vulgar people. Maybe your dad feels the same way about Egan's book.

I can hear the banker laughing now.Then he will say Son,the only way you can farm is if somebody gives you the land and equipment.Then he will probably tell you the joke about the guy that won a million dollars in the lottery and kept farming until he was broke.A bank would come closer to lending you a million dollars to buy a house if you are unemployed than 5 million to farm if you have another job.Plus that doesnt insure you will get on the gravy train,thats for rich people.They might give you a little to make you think you are getting something,then pocket the rest of what the government set aside for you.A farmer is a working man,so that means he gets abuse.Only the rich are allowed to prosper.If you work you have to be beat on and suffer,carrot and stick type of deal.If you do finally get somwhere,the bottom will fall out of prices to keep the food supply price to the exporters low so the middleman can make a big profit since he went to"college"and was educated.Never mind farmers going broke,some bigger,better farmer will take the beat down ones place and work twice as hard for half as much.

Seems there were more folks fuss'n bout the high food cost the last year when supply and demand took over and corn went to $7 than there have ever been about the subsidies that have have kept food cheap in this country. I don't like to see folks draw'n half a million a year and drive'n new every thing. When the price of grain and livestock spends more time at the price of production and lower, the subsidies do thier job by keeping family farms afloat.

Dave

Do you actually BELIEVE what your saying?off road diesel can be bought by anyone,all it is it doesnt have road taxes on it.You dont pay sales taxes ON ANY THING bought for resale if you have a tax permit,THIS aplies to anyone buying something for resale.Lets see the the NRCS will pay a certain amount,last time I checked it was 30% of a project to save NATURAL RESOURCES,STOP EROSION,etc YOU CAN GET THIS TOO!,in fact anyone can if you qualify!!that helps us ALL by saving the environment,The average farmer is more worried with the state of their land than the best tree hugger! we haul our crops to town to FEED folks like you would you rather we didnt?could or would you feed you and yours without us?lets see,american farmers feed how many people per every farmer nowdays?NEVER FORGET the hand that feeds you..and remember they dont HAVE too.

Ive never grown corn in my life,where can I get paid for not doing so?what exact program is that cause I want to get my share!Lets see,have you checked the price of cropland lately? the only ones who can afford it is the multi-millionaire folks that the townies pay to entertain them,then they hire transient labor to work their farms for them.farming is no longer a poor folks operation in case you haven't checked lately!

BY the way,and Ive never got any farm subsidies money either,but the farm subsidy programs are a worldwide thing,they are not exclusive in any way to the US.ALL countries,that have a stable government have farm subsidy programs in place!! every one that doesn't are like Africa where the people shoot each other for whatever they can steal.the ONLY way to a stable peaceful country is to first feed your people.and to do this farmers must be able to make a profit.I WISH someone would pay me to not farm we would all be making money!

I dont even remember the name of that program but it was called Soil Bank in the 60s.Its been changed a few times since then.It wasnt a bad idea for farmers really.I think it was every year they would go to the county ASC office and decide using aerial maps what land they put in the Soil Bank.They planted sweet clover or something on it and mowed it in August or September and got a paycheck from the government which was as good or better than growing corn on it.That was when they grew a huge surplus of corn.Of course some farmers never planted anything on it,or mowed anything,and still got their check.There were other conditions along with it but I dont remember all that well what it was.They were still doing this in the 1990s and may still be doing it,I just dont know what they call it now.

I grew up on a farm and graduated from high school the year of the Soviet grain embargo. That summer they had a Big Bud demonstration just across the border in South Dakota. Or big tractors were a 4020 and a G1000(wish I had em now). We had a 16' chisel plow. Big Bud pulled 4 times that. I knew then would be a lot less farmers in the years ahead and my future was somewhere else. I never minded the conservation programs, we all win with clean air and water. But a free market kind of guy I hated commodity subsidies. Everyone knows the arguments against them, it is blatently unfair, hugely expensive, 75% of the $ go to 10% of the farmers, ruins small farmers and towns,corn starch is in almost everything we eat contributing to our obesity and diabetic epidemic, dumping our excess production below cost on poor countries destroys indigenous agriculture causing dependency and misery, ect. Now it is 30 years later and I own not 1 but 2 farms in North Dakota. Not a day goes by I don't thank god and congress for 1031 Striker exchanges, and for second time in my life I got the timing right. So I am sitting here in surburban San Francisco, 1500 miles from the farms. The USDA uses direct deposit to get my CRP,EQIP,CSP,WRP and WIP payments into my checking account. The commidity stuff, Direct Payments,Countercyclical Payments, Loan Deficiency Payments and Disaster Payments have to pass through my farmers before it come to me in land rents. I find this strange, I would rather have a cheap farm program/expensive food system, but this works for me. I am glad some guys are out there defending it.