Michigan - Do you like your extension office 4H?

Wife stopped by our county extension office today for some 4-H business. Was told the future of the MSU Extension office, and of course 4-H is pretty much up in the air. Seems that Governor Granholm has the budget on her desk and is poised to line item veto the portion of the budget for the extension office (and of course 4-H). If you value your extension office, it"s time to start rattling cages in Lansing. Call your legislators, senators, the governor"s office

Our county Ag ext office is a giant waste of money and should be closed.
It amazes me how much money our county gives them. Mark

Should a government that's [financially] bankrupt continue to provide these services they obviously cannot afford? Or should they just cut programs that affects the OTHER guy? If 4-H becomes unaffordable to government, and private enterprise can't or won't step up to the plate and fund it, who SHOULD pay for it? Perhaps the participants, thru increased user fees?

Don't get me wrong; I was a 4-H member, and I can tell you it's a beneficial program to a lot of kids...teaches them valuable principles, and keeps a lot of kids out of trouble the might otherwise get into. My mom has been a 4-H leader for 40 years, an unpaid volunteer who's donated a lot more than just her time to the program, so I know all about the benefits of helping others.

But why should TAXPAYERS fund it, rather than the folks who use the program and benefit from it? Especially in times of budget troubles, why should states continue to fund programs they can't afford?

Nobody wants to pay more taxes to fund these programs, but nobody wants the programs cut, either. In effect, EVERYBODY wants a free ride, and nobody wants to pay. But unless SOMEBODY decides to pay, it's ALL gonna end.

Ever hear the old saying, "You can't have your cake and eat it, too" ??

Teaches what, to get 150 dollars for 2 chickens. That your lousy hog can bring more money than all the rest because your dad spends big bucks on farm inputs and threatens to cut off Ag suppliers if they do not bid on his kids hog. Mark

My mom is a Horse and Pony leader, and that program teaches skills on handling and caring for horses. [Unlike the cattle and chicken programs, they don't auction off your horse if you're the grand champion...so learning marketing is up to you.] If I hadn't been in the 4-H Electricity program, I'd have never heard of an Underwriter's knot.

I understand your point of veiw, BUT, Meals on wheel is a simuliar type of program. Government pays and who benefits?

AS it turns out the taxpayer does. WHY? because when old people stop eating the correct types of food they lose their ability to take care of themselves. Then they end up in a state run faucility that we pay for.

If you disagree with me, call someone in your own area that works with older people. Thats the story that they shared with us.
SDE

I once thought that government should pay for programs that benefit people. But then I saw that people began complaining that their taxes were too high, so governments started capping taxes [like property taxes in Indiana, for example]. Then when income didn't keep up with expenses, they started borrowing money. And now people are complaining about the monstrous amounts of government debt.

But nobody wants THEIR programs cut...nor do they want to pay their own way. Conservative thinking says that people should only pay their own way, and nobody eles's, when it comes to government--that charity should be up to the individual, and administered by churches and other similar orgaizations. So by this line of thinking, Meals on Wheels should be taken on by charities and churches, not government...or else the elderly beneficiaries should pay their own way. And if neither of those options happen, then maybe it's time to shut down the program.

I was just extending this thinking to 4-H, as any true conservative would.

The only difference is that 4H is about education, and my thought has been that education has been part of what we should get back for the taxes we pay in.

Well fellow you have hit a sore spot with the mentioning of 4-H. I am eighty years old and 4-H was big part of my youth. It was like a college education for me. I do not know how you have the idea 4-H is supported by the Government. 4-H is supported by the farm industries who donate large amounts of money for award for doing a good job. If you win one of the awards you earn it. In order win you have to excel in your chosen projects. Now the extension office is government supported and there purpose was help farmers adapt to new methods in farming. I went from farming with horses to modern equipment and the use of irrigation. You get what you learn of course, farmer did not use to be as smart as those of today. You can talk about your use of fertilizer. I was in 4-H at the end of World War II. There was a lot of Ammonium Nitrate left around the country as a 4-H member I was asked to take part in some research in cooperation with the State University. We were send a small sack of Ammonium Nitrate and told to measure of a certain length in a row of corn and to side dress it with the fertilizer. In the fall we weighed the corn off of that and a row unfertilized and sent the information to the University and that is one of the little reasons YOU use Nitrogen fertilizer. I never sold one of my Dairy Animal at a so called premium sale. I developed a Purebred Herd good enough that off spring of those animals still win at National Shows. It is the parents that have created the big sale prices. I won every state and National 4-H award that was available to me including judging livestock and demonstration talks.

Yes, today I question the need for Extension Office. If you go in and ask a question he will go to the computer and come back with a print out of information. You are supposed to be smart enough to use your computer.

Most of the 4-H leader are parent and they donate there time and receive no pay. 4-H now includes a lot of urban and city youth and they have a great choice of projects.

Most of the high price you hear about is from the FFA group. It is supported buy the School with the instructors on the school payroll. They are provided with a new Pickup and Goose Neck Trailer and complete shops and show facilities.

My family is in the fifths generation of 4-H work and have been to busy to run around and get in trouble. I am proud enough I will sign my name.

Graydon Trible
gitrib

So you think our public education system is a success?

If you want to see a real waste of money Check out all the nnalert immigrants and those of Latin descent waiting for food stamps, welfare checks, fuel assistance, etc. And when a company wants to hire labor they will hire a minority since the gov helps out with his wages.
The little money 4H costs compared to what is lost in gov waste and fraud is not worth arguing about.

"The Cooperative Extension System is a nationwide, non-credit educational network. Each U.S. state and territory has a state office at its land-grant university and a network of local or regional offices. These offices are staffed by one or more experts who provide useful, practical, and research-based information to agricultural producers, small business owners, youth, consumers, and others in rural areas and communities of all sizes.

NIFA is the federal partner in the Cooperative Extension System. It provides federal funding to the system and, through program leadership, helps the system identify and address current issues and problems."

This was taken from a USDA website, and it says that the USDA, through NIFA, "provides federal funding to the system"...so it IS government [and tax dollar] funded. Odds are the CES and the 4-H programs don't generate a lot of government revenue...so they're a handout. In this era of "personal responsibility," a true conservative would advocate that these programs either pay their own way, or we phase 'em out and stop the drain on the taxpayers' wallets.

So you believe that a person's religion,and the country their parents came from, should be qualifying factors for public assistance? After we rule out the nnalert, let's rule out the Hindus and Buddhists next. Then we can go after the Presbyterians or the Episcopalians, if you don't like them. Then the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Pentecostals can be next...and we don't have to worry about shunning the Amish, as long as they continue to shun us. But the Mennonites are off the list next for sure.

As for national origin, after we dump those of Latin descent, let's get rid of the ones whose parents came from Canada, since Canada took in our draft dodgers in the '60's. Then we can cut off benefits to the folks who are of German descent, since the Germans were our enemies in WWII. Then the folks whose kin came from Japan and Italy, for the same reasons. Then let's stop providing benefits to the decendents of the British, since we fought them in 1812-14 and before that in the 1770'-'80's. And since we were at war with the South in 1861-1865, ALL those states that were part of the Confederate States of America can be cut off from receiving benefits immediately.

Yup, if we can cut off benefits to folks whose decendants came from somewhere else, or those who are of a different religion from us, this country would be A-OK.

elderly people in indiana that receive meals on wheels pay for them each week. they are not free.

That leaves the Indians,back where it all started.

I will agree with one part. The county extension offices should be discontinued. With the onset of the internet why are they needed? You can set in your office at home and get the same information plus more on your computer. You can get information from several sources and then it up to you to evaluate this information for your own use. Some people want to let someone else make the decision for them.

When it comes to 4-H there are foundations that are supported by many large companies and individuals that provide funding for the 4-H projects. The elected volunteer county 4-H committee directs the individual volunteer leaders. These volunteers receive no pay for there work. When I was a State 4-H officer all of the state officer were involved in raiding the funds needed t secure the land and build the camp. I drove over a part of the state I lived in conducting meeting to enlighten people of the need for funding. I was eighteen and received no money for mileage and time. That camp is one of the finest and is owned by a Foundation and operates on its own funding charged for its use. This was not done with a hand out from the government. If you check you will find that all of the awards and trips that 4-H member receive are from foundations supported by individuals or large companies not from TAX money.

We have given fine purebred animals to young members who are working hard with the poor quality they have. We have hauled there animals to state and National show with our show herd and only on one case did one of these recipient fail to live up to expectation and that was due to lack of parental support. One of the young ladies graduates from college this year and has served on the judging team and served a internship at one of the big AI companies.

So I say “Do not throw the baby out in the washwater”.
gitrib

You must live right. As a kid, I was in 4H only two years. Just long enough to figure out that if your last name wasn't one of three, you were wasting your time.

When you were showing critters at the county fair, or elsewhere, the animal's attributes were immaterial. If you had one of the three last names you were automatically the winner.

Buzzman72, I have said the same thing about high school sports. If we can't afford to educate the kids, why are we paying for an extra curricular(SP) activity that has less benefit than 4H.

What does the success of public education have to do with the subject at hand? nothing. You used the argument that a true conservative would not support a program that is not self sufficient, that is hogwash. Public education, whether K-12 or Higher education does absolutely nothing to be self sufficient. Thus my original point that 4H is about education and education is one thing that we should expect to get back as a result of the taxes we pay in. You are twisting what a conservative believes to fit your line of thinking. I do not know of any conservative that expects public education to become self sufficient, it is just not feasible. Now if we were talking about a social program, then yes, a conservative would expect that the program would in short time pay its own way, or let a private entity take it over and do it more efficiently.
As I said in the previous post, 4H is about education. We pay taxes in to directly support the public education system. I am a true conservative and I am already paying taxes for education, 4H and FFA should remain included in that education that I am paying for.

Yeah, that's the problem. People in general complain about high taxes, but want to "rattle cages" when something they like gets cut.
Michigan has already cut some essential stuff in Lansing (like tax review court hours). Subsequently, it's going to take a very long time for my taxes to get fixed (if ever).

I wish Granholm would cut everything but bare essentials. Then let people keep their tax dollars and fend for themselves. If they don't like the lack of "free" services, let them move elsewhere.

Don't try New York, it's worse.

Michigan has basically been a spoiled overpaid state for years, much due to Detroit and Great Lakes shipping/industry. New York suffers from New York City. I wish both states would cut all superfluous garbage and overpaid workers from the budgets. Better yet, let northern Michigan, and/or the UP separate, along with upstate New York from New York City and its politicians.

I'm mixing the two states because I live in both, back and forth. And, much of Michigan was settled by people who left New York State to find cheaper farm land and lower taxes. It was New York people that built the Mac Bridge.

I agree with you -- cut everybody off and pare the federal government down to the powers that the constitution provided for, which was very dam little.

THAT'S what I'm talking about!

Folks want government services cut to the bone, so their taxes will go down...EXCEPT when it's a program THEY like, or get benefits from.

4-H is a beneficial program, IMHO...I think it should be continued. But should government continue to fund parts of the program through the CES...or should it be taken completely away from government, and left to beg for corporate contributions [which are hard to come by in a don economy]?

I don't have the answer. But what I've been saying is, if you want government to cut out ALL non-essential services, you don't have a lot of room to complain when something you like gets cut along the way.

Or, as Grandma used to say it, "Be careful what you wish for."

RayP(MI) I am from Genesse County. We did a letter writing mass request to the county commisioners. They and the state are funding 4H for next year.I dont know where you got your info from,but I think it is your county board of commisioners that is cutting 4H. What county are you from?? Maybe its not too late to do that in your county.My statement was "When was the last time you arrested a 4H member for drugs,etc."None of my comments are to be taken in anythig but a positive manner.This thread has had enough of that.