For the headscratchers... (freezing barn water pipes)

Hey folks,

I've got heat tape but am real leary of using it. System available here that just circulates heated water instead of using the cable (pictures). Costs 1k+ bucks and just takes care of drinkers. Just had a brainstorm that I think will serve the same purpose plus, and save a bunch of money. Hoping someone can tell me if it'll work or not. The store bought one:

Pump/heater:



the plan:




I was thinking of putting a 5 gal or so water heater (<100 bucks) in place of the mega buck system, setting it to the frost free mode (or a few degrees above freezing) and just using the same drinker schematic and a small circulator pump (on a frost switch). At the same time, I could plumb in a faucet to give me a source of hot water if needed (I know I'd have to turn the temp up).

The room I would put it in usually don't freeze but has a small heater on a frost switch just in case.
I think, if it will work, that the water heater/circulation pump, won't use any (or much) more power than the heat tape and will be safer with the benefit of serving a double purpose....
I have everything on hand except the heater.

Am I an idiot????

Dave

If you used the circulating pump would you even need to heat the water?

(quoted from post at 05:50:12 03/06/10) If you used the circulating pump would you even need to heat the water?

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You mean just loop the supply back into itself??? Would that work?

I don't know. Moving water takes a lot longer to freeze than standing water. Maybe worth a try? You wouldn't be out much if it didn't work.

Maybe you could heat a small coil of pipe somewhere along the system with a couple of light bulbs? Place the coil inside an insulated container with the bulbs to see if it will work.

I mean, with the supply just looped back to itself, would the pump circulate the water? The water heater would serve a double purpose of an emergency hot water source. Can get one as small as 5 liters for cheap.
Just need to figure if my brainstorm is doable. Keep the ideas coming.

Dave

Per your pictures the expensive set up not only heats the water it keeps it moving. Notice the return line is hooked into the supply line(9) just above (3).

If you add just a heater it would not work because you need to circulate the heated water threw the pipes.

Addind only a circulator pump will work for a few degrees below freezing but the pump will have to run 24/7 as long as the temp is below about 28 degrees F.

The idea of adding a heater in the system allows for you to shut it down because hot water takes longer to freeze and the hot water will melt any ice that has started to form. The hotter the water heater is set the shorter the circulation run time.

With that said your set up should work. You need a small pump to move the water; and one of those instant water heaters like used under a sink. Plumb the return back into the supply and install a switch that turns the pump on when needed.

Wouldn't the drinker valve freeze if the water wasn't heated? If the water was trickling through the drinker valve maybe not, but that might cause another problem down the drain.

I would say that you plan is workable. That little pump looks like the one on my home hot water system loop. Out of top of water heater & returns to bottom. It circulates hot water around the loop serving the baths, dishwasher, sinks, etc. so that hot water is instantly available and it consumes only 100 watts of power. Runs 24/7 and lasts about 5 or 6 years (1st), now on 2nd.

(quoted from post at 07:57:32 03/06/10) Wouldn't the drinker valve freeze if the water wasn't heated? If the water was trickling through the drinker valve maybe not, but that might cause another problem down the drain.

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Don't know if I am explaining it right, but the valves are kinda like a frost free faucet. They stick inside of and open/close where that water would circulate. When they stop drinking, the valve empties. They aren't exactly like the ones in the picture.

Dave

I think it will work. I would use an impeller pump for circulation, Very small, and is not a vane or rubber flap type. This would make it less prone to wear, and sense it is in a loop it is not needing prime. Jim

Dave, in our old firehall (now city shop) there's a large "riser pipe" coming up through the floor right in the CCCCCOLD NW corner of the building.

Originally (in 1967) it was wrapped in heat tape, then the floor was poured.

Of course, the heat tape failed and the pipe would often freeze.

For YEARS, they'd leave water run in the building which USUALLY worked.

Then, (for better water) the town hooked up to a rural water system with $$$ water, so letting water trickle down the drain all winter wasn't such a good solution any more!

The city maintenance man and I set up a system with a recirculating pump similar to the pump in your photo.

Water is taken from near the middle of the building, then pumped though uninsulated copper pipe though a warm furnaceroom, then piped to a 1/2" copper tube stuck down into the 6" riser pipe, where it discharges below the frost line. (6 or 7 feet below ground.)

It's never frozen up in the dozen years or so since we set up that system.

So, I think your idea WILL work. I don't know what temps you are dealing with, just circulation the water adds a LITTLE heat and if you have a warm room you can "steal" some heat from (with a section of baseboard as the other guy posted) or even add a little heat with a simple heat exchanger (coil of pipe in a an insulated "box" with light bulbs or other heat source) as the other guy posted it's gonna WORK.

CHEAP, and MUCH safer than heat tape in a barn!

baptist hospital is San Antonio got the ideal of turning down its water heaters to 110 degrees to save money and ended up killing 3 patients and giving several more the legioneers (sp) disease. hot water is ok, warm water is bad,, very very bad. Water heaters are back up to 140 again. And there was a huge lawsuit.

for what ever this is worth.. bill

How are you planning to isolate the heater circuit? If you use any water heater of any real size I think the problem you will have is that the water will always be coming out hot. In other words your cattle will be getting 110 to 140 degree water to drink. My guess is that the commercial unit heats the water to around 40 or so, therefore not needing to be isolated. You won't be able to find a water heater commercially that goes that low I would think.

(quoted from post at 11:49:05 03/06/10) You won't be able to find a water heater commercially that goes that low I would think.

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That won't be a problem here. Cost is about 50 bucks for a 5 liter heater that can be set real low. Even if hot, it'd be cooled down by the time much went through the pipes.

Moving water will distribute heat around the system. How cold is the waterer area; how warm is the room with the water supply; and how often do the critters drink?

The warmer water from below ground, as well as the warmth from the supply room, would curculate to the colder drinking room. It will wotk to just curculate; but at some point the cold can win out & freeze it all up if there is not enough heat to keep it going.

You could also put a loop of pipe underground below the frost line, and currculate through that. It will pick up 50 degree heat from below ground and use that heat to keep the drinkers from freezing. The colder your drinker area gets, the bigger of a loop you would need.

--->Paul

If it hits 10 degrees in this area it is real cold. Your idea is real appealing because I have a basement under the barnthat stays about 50 degrees through the winter. Basement is next to the last drinker anyway and I could use the running water in there (already has a drain). Just turn the heater on when I needed hot water for something else.

Let me be thick headed though. If I didn't get the heater right away:

If I ran the supply line in series to the drinkers and through the basement then back to the start point and spliced into itself with a pump (at the start or end?), would it circulate the water? Or would I have to have the tank to return into?

Dave

You wouldn't need a tank.

(quoted from post at 07:55:00 03/07/10) If it hits 10 degrees in this area it is real cold. Your idea is real appealing because I have a basement under the barnthat stays about 50 degrees through the winter. Basement is next to the last drinker anyway and I could use the running water in there (already has a drain). Just turn the heater on when I needed hot water for something else.

Let me be thick headed though. If I didn't get the heater right away:

If I ran the supply line in series to the drinkers and through the basement then back to the start point and spliced into itself with a pump (at the start or end?), would it circulate the water? Or would I have to have the tank to return into?

Dave

Click to expand...

You shouldnt need a heater at all if you can store some water in that basement room and give it some time to warm up to room temp of 50 degrees. Just runnning the pipe throught the room wont be enough though, you need a good size tank for the thermal mass. It takes a while for the water to warm back up again and a 3/4 or 1 inch pipe full of water is not much volume. Over here, we can get storage tanks for the taking in the form of 40 gallon water heater tanks, just strip the insulation off so the cold water from running through the upstairs pipes can warm back up. Can you get any tanks like that free or cheap over there? If so, then that only leaves some piping (for the loop) and a pump (and timer if you dont want it running all the time). You could put in a heater but you shouldnt need it at all with access to a 50 degree room to let the water warm up.

It would also help to insulate the pipes that run in the cold part of the barn, if you can do that without the animals eating it.

I think you could do a much cheaper system than buying one for a thousand.