Thats a really good idea...

Hey guys... So, i was just cruising around on another forum, and i saw a thread about tractor cranking kickbacks...

Someone came up with the idea to use a ratchet... Thinking that if the tractor backfires, the ratchet will just spin. No flying cranks, no busted wrists or broken arms...

That sounds genius to me... Has anyone ever done it??

Id love to build one for my B... I could get a piece of steel bar stock the diameter of my crank, stick a piece of steel through the tractor end for gripping the pulley, and weld a cheap or worn out socket to the "me" end of the thing... Top it off with a harbor freight ratchet with a pipe welded to it, and it sounds like a pretty sweet deal...

Is there anything im not thinking of here?? Has anyone tried this before?? Without the fear of kickbacks, you could crank it however was easiest, not just the safe way...

The kickback usually is against engine rotation, and any ratchet device that would allow you to crank the engine would still be engaged.

I had a C that I drove a lot last year and had to start with the crank. It's not too bad if you think carefully before you start cranking, and the engines are small enough so they are pretty easy to spin. It took me a bit of figuring and practice, but I got so I could start it pretty easily.
Zach

Imposible to work that way. Sit down and think it over and you will understand. A big spring was always a back thought in my mind.

Never wrap your thumb on a crank, and always keep your head back. You should never have to spin a crank on a well tuned engine, rather snap it over one cylinder at a time.

I don't quite understand why it wouldn't work. It is just like spinning a rachet backwards.

Dope. I just figured it out. It definitely won't work. Think of the crank now. It is pulling the engine over (just like a rachet would be), but when it kicks it kicks the bar back. If the rachet was to kick it would be like you were trying to tighten a bolt and it wouldn't give. Nice thinking though.

I saw on TV some old tractor that started on a shotgun shell.I know some old engines started by airing up a cylinder,or with an air starter.Old John Deeres had a flywheel to spin.Ive parked on on a hill a lot of times to roll it off to start a Fergusen tractor the next day,and others.Even a big tractor trailer would start like that, rolling off a hill, if you knew how.One time in New Mexico going up a mountain a truck I was driving quit running,so I rolled it backwards after I fixed the battery cable that went to the alternator that was broke off by a gator(tire tread lying in the road) and fired it up rolling backwards.I think it had to be in reverse maybe,it was in the 1980s so I dont remember all the fine details.But a ratchet is not going to work like others have said.There might be a way to rig it where you could only turn it one way,but it would still get you if it kicked back Im thinking.

You can try it Lanse, but don't forget the helmet and chest protector. Maybe the equipment that a hockey goalie wears would be best.

You have a lot of good ideas -- but this isn't one of them. I'm not trying to be smart, respect your enthusiasm.

Hi Lanse: First thought was "Ya" that might work but after thinking it through step by step... Nope, no way. An engine kickback is often "back rotation" so think it through. Your pulling up on the crank and before T.D.C. it kicks and there is NO Ratchet action. Only ratchet action is if it kicks "forward" such as what it normally should do in starting... Another words, lets say you pulling up on the crank and are about half way up when there is pre-ignition and the crankshaft goes oposite direction you were pulling... it's got power to spare in pulling your hand backwards. The only time the ratchet will be used is if the crankshaft spins "Forwards" lots faster then you care to ever see. OK?? Nice try tho.. Gotta remember that the danger is the fact that the engine crankshaft "Might" rotate in EITHER direction without warning... Nice try tho.. ag

A company I worked for in Houston Texas routinely installed spring starters on small Detroit Diesel engines for use in remote locations. The starter looked like a starter, but had a wind up crank for a large spring inside. To start the engine, wind the crank until it was tight, then trip the latch, and it would whirl the engine several revolutions. If the engine would run, the spring starter would start it. That ratchet idea is scary.

I already have a patent brain storms that sound good and end up bad. So ya better forget it before I have to sue you or send you a get well card.^D

Trucker40, I think what you saw was an old Lanz or Field Marshall with a single cylinder hot bulb engine. There are some interesting youtube videos of them.

The cranks to start engines as I remember have a spiral on the slot so they only work one way... when the engine starts it won't turn the crank... it pushes the crank off the pins.

No, because the kickback is opposite to the direction you're cranking. All cranks have a ratchet of some sort to allow the crank to freewheel when the engine fires in the "right" direction.

The guys are missing the point here.

No need to re-invent the wheel.

Back in the days of the Model T Ford (and other cars of that era) there were all sorts of aftermarket "gee-whiz" gadgets including all sorts of "anti-kickback" devices. My late Uncle was a Model T collector and I remember seeing them hyped up in his collection of literature from the period.

All that would be needed is to leave the hand crank setup as-is and simply add a ratchet and pawl to "catch" the crank if the engine kicks back. It would simply ratchet as you cranked in the forward direction, and "catch" when the crank backed up from a backfire, stopping the reverse rotation of the engine. Of course, the parts have to be strong enough to withstand the force of the kickback.

If you can find the book "Henry's Wonderful Model T" by Floyd Clymer there are all sorts of vintage ads, IIRC, some of which illustrate similar anti-kickback devices.

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Yes,that's what I was thinking right off the bat. The rachet would only stop the crank from turning the same direction as the motor when it starts,not from kicking back. But that's what the beveled slot that the crank fits into is for.

We had a lawnmower back in the late '50's that had a wind-up spring- you wound up the spring, then pushed a lever to release it, and the unwinding spring turned the engine over and (hopefully) started it. It was a PITA in that application, because for most folks, its easier to just pull a rope (although it took less muscle to wind up the spring, so maybe an advantage for older folks). But I can see an advantage on a crank start tractor- you wouldn't be holding onto a crank, and any kick-back would be harmlessly absorbed by the spring.

The old Fords that had hand cranks, broke many arms and wrists, if the man trying to start it had his thumb around the handle, instead of laying beside it, against his fingers!
If it did kick back, it would toss yer hand away from the crank. Some real strong guys could spin an old T to start it, especially when the engine had worn compression. Most guys just did the engine prime thing, did several pull-ups with the ignition off, listening to the "slurping" sound in the carb intake, and then giving a mighty heave of the crank, and it would usually start with the ignition key turned to "on" position. Another trick was to jack up one rear wheel, and then try to start it. Usually helped. Last was a tow with "Old Jack" the mule you had to coax out of his stall, to pull you and the car around to loosen the grip of thick oils, especially in Winter. Another way was to park it on a close-by hill, and coax it to start that way. One bad design was having the gas tank mounted beneath the seat. Less than a half-tank of gas, and you'd have to back up a steep hill! BTDT! I'll be 86 next September!

You guys are confused, except for Bob in the message below. There are essentially two ratchet/pawl mechanisms. First is the one we're all familiar with between the crank itself and the engine crankshaft, which allows the engine to turn in the right direction without spinning the crank further.

The second ratchet pawl arrangement goes between the crank and the tractor/engine frame, and only allows the CRANK to turn in one direction.

That way, when the engine kicks back, the engine crankshaft catches the crank and tries to spin it backwards, but the second pawl catches the crank and keeps it from turning backwards.

As someone else pointed out, both mechanisms would have to be able to take the force generated by the engine trying to turn in the wrong direction. I'm not sure what would happen if the engine was suddenly stopped near the top of the power stroke, but intuitively that seems like a good way to break a rod or a crankshaft. Maybe a spring arrangement could be used to limit backward crank travel without a hard stop.

Probably a better idea to just make sure the timing is retarded sufficiently to make sure the engine is well past top dead center on the compression stroke before it fires. Remember, the model T used buzz coil ignition to start, and the timing wasn't all that accurate. The situation was even worse if the driver forgot to retard the spark before cranking....

Keith