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Calling Diesel Injector Pump Experts

J

Jeff NWOH

Member
Hey Guys,

Drug home a Massey 65 the other day. Has injector pump issues. The last time it ran, it fired up and sort of ran away and then shut itself off and wouldn't restart. This was about 2 years ago.

It has a CAV DPA series pump on the Perkins engine. My understanding is that the fuel control lever probably got stuck open until the engine revved high enough that the governor finally snapped it shut and then it stuck there. I've pulled the top cover off and got the fuel lever moving, but I still cant get the thing to pump any fuel.

I guess I'm wondering if there might be something else I can try short of pulling the pump off. If not, is it possible to disassemble, clean, and reassemble one of these without all kinds of special tools or messing up internal settings? I can get a seal kit for $30. Diesel shop said $450 - $500 to go through it. Thinking it might be worth a gamble for $400 or so.

Thanks, Jeff.
 
Not an expert by any stretch, but I had the CAV DPA pump on my Ford 3600 "gone through" by a local shop. They quoted about the same price, but then needed a few more parts to get everything right. Final bill was about $750. Still worth it, but go into it with your eyes open.

YMMV,

Kirk
 
It' kind of hard to guess from here. That being said, a metering valve isn't going to get stuck just because it gets closed quickly.

My first thought is - the tractor was starving for fuel, had air or water in it, etc. - revved up, broke/siezed inside, and it quit. So, first thing to do is look inside and make sure it's all turning inside. If it's broke, a pump shop will raise their repair quote substantially.

Now, if the tractor had been sitting a long time, you started it, it took off and then shut down. Then it's quite possible the metering-valve is simply sticking and is now stuck in "off" position. You can't go by what the lever is doing on the outside. You've got to pull the top cover off and look inside. Download a free CAV DPA manual, it will help. Just do a Web-search for CAV DPA British taxi. Same basic pump and that full manual has been on the Net for years in a big PDF file.
 
Injection pumps are a specialized type of work. If you've never worked on them before, it might be better to take it to someone who has experience. It might save you money and aggravation in the long run. Dave
 
Not trying to be a wise-a*s here, but that could be said for almost anything.

A rotary injection pump is basically just two hydraulic pumps coupled together, with some controls and a governor added. If somebody has mechanical skills, they can figure it out just like anything else mechanical - as long as they have the proper info. Considering the extremely high rates many shops charge to work on these "magic" hydraulic pumps, there's plenty of incentive to fix-at-home.
 
Don't suppose you're anywhere close to Monroe, MI? My brother has a friend over there, they used to work together, the guy's one heck of a good mechanic. I had an '83 GMC 6.2 that needed the pump rebuilt, local shop said $1400 minimum. This feller did it for $350, the thing ran like a top. He's got all the stuff to do it right. I'd have to get his number again from my brother.
 
Rule out the obvious filters,flowage and a clean fuel tank.It is specialized work and takes special equipment.If you don't get it timed right you are peaing into the wind..pay the $400...
 
That was kind of my thinking John. I have looked through that PDF on the pump and it doesn't look too awful. There's a lot of firsts working on tractors or anything else. First carb rebuild, first engine rebuild, first split to change a cluth, etc. Sooner or later, you just gotta try it.

I guess I was wondering if it could be dismantled, cleaned, and put back together without having to recalibrate everything. Obviously I don't have a test bench to run it on or the equip to recalibrate it. If it's not possible then I'd be wasting my time.

I did have the top cover off and the metering valve did seem to be kinda stuck closed. Seems to be moving freely now, but still no fuel to injectors. I guess I assumed that everything is where it is supposed to be inside, but I guess I really have no idea if anything is even moving internally when I crank the tractor over. I think I'll order a gasket kit and open it up. Worst case, I'll waste a few hours and $30. I might even learn something. Of course, it might be that I should have took it to the shop in the first place.

Jeff
 
Jdemaris you read my mind. I would like to take a crack at rebuilding the injector pump in my 1995 Chevey wrecker. It has a 6.5 t/diesel with a Standyne (Roosa Maaster?) pump and I haven't been able to find a place to order a rebuild manual. Parts seem to be readily available.

Any help would be appreciated.

Brad
 
I was just thinking that if someone tried to fix it themselfs and got something just a little off, it would cost them even more to have an expert try to figure out what's wrong. Dave
 
And again, you can say the same for anything mechanical. Attempt a fix on a carb, cylinder head, complete engine, or starter apart, screw something up. Then try to hire someone else to fix - and it might cost you more - then if you'd left things alone. So what?

Are you saying that nobody, with or without mechanical skills should attempt to fix anything that appears complicated?
 
Name one piece of "special" equipment that a tractor owner must have - to repair and/or adjust an injection pump correctly.

And, let's define "special." I assume you mean something sophisticated and very expensive that nobody is going to buy to fix one tractor in a small shop.

Pump shops MUST have expensive test stands for several reasons.

#1 - they don't have an engine or complete tractor on site - so they must have a way to similate conditions as if they did - to run and test a pump.

#2. Newer pumps often have to be emmissions certfified on stands. None of this applies to 1950s-1980s farm tractors.

You mentioed "timing." OK. A tractor with an injection pump on it, is #1 static timed - and NO special tools needed. #2 if the pump has an automatic timing advance (not all do), it can be checked on a running engine with . . . a $10 timing window on a Stanadyne pumps, or a diesel-timing-light adapter on any other make.
 
If it was a 1993 6.5, it's no big deal. But a 1995 has to be (legally) emmissions certified and does take more equipment to work on, then a farm tractor, 1993 or older 6.2 or 6.5, or a 1994 1/2 or older Ford truck.
 
Yes but if a person gets the pump together wrong and starts it up, then it runs wild and blows the motor to pieces, where are you at now? Saw that happen on one of those worthless GM6.2 diesels.
 
You can take it apart and put back together without changing any adjustments. This works fine on a tractor that you've run and know was OK before a tear-down. More "iffy" on a engine you've never heard run. When necessary, max. fuel setting can be checked with a conventional 2" micrometer (that can be bought new for $20). Timing can be checked on a running engine - by "ear", or with a conventional gas-engine timing light hooked to a Piezo adapter.

If you pull the timing window off the side of the pump, you can easily observe if the internals of the pump are turning.
 
Yes, and I've seen it happen MUCH more often on Detroit Diesels - the two-strokes-cycle diesels, NOT the 6.2s also designed by Detroit Diesel.

That's why, when you first start an engine - you make sure you've got some way to shut it down quickly. That's Mechanics 101. When we worked on Deere's with 2-53 Detroits, we always had somebody stand near the engine with a rag to plug the air-intake if needed if an engine ran wild. Same goes for V8 diesels. If unsure - have somebody ready to plug the air intake if there's trouble. Easy to do.

Again - if a person puts an engine together wrong, it can blow up. If a person puts a gas engine carb or governor together wrong, it can blow up. Etc., etc. Heck, you can put a spark plug in "wrong" and ruin an engine.

Screw up can have bad results on just about anything. I fail to see why this "special" injection pumps are put into a category all their own by some people.

By the way, I got 520,000 miles out of my J-code 6.2 in my 87 Suburban. I also have many here with over 200K that have never been apart and run fine. And yes, there are many that failed much earlier. Many people forget that the 6.2 diesel was designed by Detroit Diesel to be an equal power-replacement for 305 gas engines (5 liters), and nothing more - at the time it was created. Adding a turbo, and/or increasing the bore slightly to 6.5 liters put them well beyond their original design. And, driving a stock 6.2 hard and lugging it - also put it past it's design limits.
 
It is so easy to work on rotary and inline high pressure diesel pumps as you say, then why do dealerships around me send them to a specialized company? 3 CIH, 3 JD and 2 NH dealers all send there pumps in, and its not for emissions, I have never heard of that because most shops will set the pump to what you want, within reason. If it is so easy to work on them why dont the certified mechs at the dealership I just listed work on them? So you cant take a 6.2 and lug it or run it hard? Whats the point of having a diesel? You got 500,000 miles out of one? doing what? plowing a little snow? going to get groceries? I got a 24v cummins with 600,000 on it, I have made few minor repairs but I farm with mine, real farming.Hard work day in and day out. 25,000 lb loads of hay. Livestock trailer with 10 1500lbs steers on. Lots of short trips between farms.
 
(quoted from post at 09:21:58 12/06/10) Yes but if a person gets the pump together wrong and starts it up, then it runs wild and blows the motor to pieces, where are you at now? Saw that happen on one of those worthless GM6.2 diesels.
Click to expand...

Not all 6.2L diesels were worthless. I had a '83 that would pull 11 rd bales of hay as fast(legal speed limit) as I dared to go and get 11-12 mpg doing it. I haven't owned a truck since that will come close for the money that I paid for that used 4X4. When I sold it it had 240,000 plus miles on it but it was eat up with rust.
 
When you took the top cover off, did you make sure which adjustment hole the throttle shaft and tombstone springs were hooked in? If you did not do this, then you are in knee-deep trouble already. If either one is re-hooked just one hole off the tractor will not perform as engineered. Tom
 
Non of the current day crop of "mechanics" are taught to repair injection pumps.

Deere no longer teaches injection pump repair at their service schools and non of the other engine schools I attend do any longer.

Everyone today is brainwashed into believing pump work must be sent out for repairs. The young guys in our shop look on in disbelief when ever us old timers repair a DB2 on the bench like we learned to do in service schools.
 
Yes but if is as easy as jdemaris said it is, then just about anyone with a little mechanical aptitude can work on them
 
There's a fair stretch of road between cleaning the jets in a carb and tearing down a pump. I agree with you that the pump is not that complicated... but one does need to be very observant of what they're doing and should really understand the basic theory of the pump. One also needs to be certain that they don't do something that causes the metering valve to stick open or not install the shutoff bar correctly... as that could result in a runaway which would obviously be far more costly than sending the pump out to someone who knows what they're doing. A person should be aware of those risks and be prepared with a piece of plywood to choke the intake off or some CO2 to shut it down...
It's awful easy for someone to make a mistake the first time repairing something new... so at least be prepared if it does go bad.

Rod
 
You are spouting out stuff that makes NO sense to me.

First of all, some auto-makers atarted offering diesels in the 60s and 70s - for better fuel mileage. NOT power. The 6.2 was custom-designed by Detroit Diesel to provide a light-weight power-equivalent to the 305 gasser that got 15-20% better fuel mileage.

Diesel engines always have less power then gas engines - if not turbocharged and if they have equal bore and stroke. I think that was the biggest problem when clueless consumers bought diesel cars and trucks. They expected more power, not less.

What on earth does somebody working at a Deere dealership have to do with anything? They can do, or not do, whatever they want. Back in the 60s and 70s MANY Deere dealerships did their own pump work and John Deere Co. supplied all the parts and manuals. When Deere Co. dropped support, many dealers quit doing it.

Also, why are you comparing a HD medium-duty rated Cummins diesel - to a light-duty 6.2? Did you ever see a Cummins 5.9 offered in a 1/2 ton pickup truck, or Blazer-like vehicle such as a Ramcharger? No.

Back in the 60s, Jeep and Check DID offer Perkins diesels. They did not sell well and it got dropped.

My 87 Surburban spent it's first 300K miles towing a livestock trailer all over the USA. It was a friend of mine that sold goats. It quit at 300K and the local Chevy dealer said he couldn't fix it. So, I bought it for $200, spent $200 fixing the injection pump and installing new injector nozzles, and put another 200K on it -with no engine teardowns ever. Everything else fall apart, but not the engine.
 
Show me anywhere, even once, that I ever said repairing pumps was "easy."

Come on Stuart, if you want to argue, please use a little truth.
 
Some carbs require a heck of lot more then a simple jet-cleaning. THAT is a "stretch."

I wonder how many people could completely take apart a Rochester Quadrajet or Quadrajet EM4C, put back together and actually have it work correctly without the proper repair info? Carbs like that can be every bit as complicated as a rotary, mechanical injection pump.

I have never stated anywhere, anytime - that repairing an injection is "easy", as Stuart has claimed. What I have stated many times is - a person with mechanical skills AND proper repair info need not be scared to take it on.
 
He is not a mechanic.One time I was working in a shop and they brought a truck in with a Cat engine and it was missing.I had not been working there very long,and all of the big shots were gone.So the driver told me what it was doing and I got a 3/4 wrench and broke the lines loose one at a time and found out which cylinder it was.Then I took the line off at the pump and could see that it was real rusty.I took the cover off and sprayed the piston with a bunch of penetrating oil and got it loose,worked it and oiled it and blew it out with compressed air,put the cover back on and hooked it up and the miss was gone once I got the air out of it.When the bosses got back they couldnt believe that I fixed it like that.
Ive seen problems that were way more because of injectors than pumps.Pumps go bad though.Something is probably stuck not allowing this guys tractor pump to build pressure,or maybe it wont pump enough pressure.
 
Look at your post down below. You claim that with a few mechanical skills one can be figured out. You claim its basically two hydraulic pumps combined. They are not that simple. Just because someone is a good motorcycle mechanic doesnt mean they can tear into a pump.
 
If that's the carb I think you're refering to... a mid 80's GM emission innovation.... then many of them probably never worked right... I've never had a quadrajet apart myself so I can't comment on them beyond that... but any Marvel, Holley or Mikuni I've ever had apart was a very simple thing to work on. Float height is the most difficult part.
The biggest thing I see with the CAV pumps is that onee needs to make sure to position the govenor spring correctly, the shutoff bar correctly, get the govenor back together properly and not disturb the maximum delivery on the cam ring... I suppose if one is aware of that then it's no big deal really.
If one was talking about the Simms/Minimec or any other inline then all bets are off. There's a lot more technical setup involved in phasing those pumps.

Rod
 
Had to fix many an old Ford farm tractor like that. With an in-line injection pump and a stuck piston that caused a miss. They use a separate oil reservoir that often goes unchecked until it runs dry.

With many, all it took is prying the over off, spraying some oil in there, prying the stuck piston loose, filling the box with oil - and then all ran fine. I've also done the same with in-line CAV pumps on some IH tractors.
 
NO, that is NOT what I said - and is clear for those that can read. I stated it's two hydraulic pumps WITH CONTROLS ADDED. I also said it could be figured out like any other mechanical device. That is 100% true and there is no secret magic involved. Obviously some people can and some can't. I'm going to assume you can't.

What the heck is your problem and why do you keep tryng to put words in my mouth?

Just because you cannot do something, does not negate the ability of others.

I'll repeat . . and read carefully and in entirety . .

"A rotary injection pump is basically just two hydraulic pumps coupled together, with some controls and a governor added. If somebody has mechanical skills, they can figure it out just like anything else mechanical - as long as they have the proper info"
 
With some of the old in-lines, the older repair manuals give descriptions of how to repair and setup with no special tools. Equalizing fuel delivery is often done with a bunch of clear hoses hooked to the outputs - running vertically with gradient marks stuck on them. Sounds crude but works pretty well. I've done several CAV DES in-line pumps that way. Worked fine and saved a lot of money. I just did one last week along with a new set of pump plungers and barrels. I was surprised to find them still available new from a place in England. I called several US pump shops who said "no parts available."
 
Ok so I forgot the part about controls. I did not say I could not work on them. There now your putting words in my mouth. Your tone about this whole deal really boils down to making it sound as simple as working on a cylinder head or carb. If it is so simple then why doesnt everyone do it? Its not as simple as working on a motor, for one tolerances are alot tighter. I have seen rotary pumps that wont slide back together dry but will when coated with diesel. They are not that simple.
 
Other than the "controls" part I missed, that is exactly what you said. Your argumentative person by nature that is for sure.
 
Other than the "controls" part I missed, that is exactly what you said. Your argumentative person by nature that is for sure.
 
Engine parts are loose enough to be checked with measuring devices like micrometers and calipers that measure in thousandths.

Many injection pump parts have tolerances so close - fit is determined by appearance and feel.
New parts are coded so you can see if standard or oversize.

I don't find either terribly complicated - when put into the context of machining or engine mechanics. Might be very complicated for someone that does not do mechanical work.
 
To be precise, besides "two pump", I mentioned "added controls" and a "governor."

Did I miss something? If so, what?

I stated something clearly and factually. You keep hammering away at it, somehow trying to nullify what I've written - and you've failed 100%. Yet, you say I'm the one that wants to argue?

I made a point and am simply sticking by it. That's not being argumentitive. What you have been doing . . . is.
 
You keep claiming that anyone with mechanical aptitude can figure them out but say that tolerances are "feel" sort of thing. Takes more than aptitude, it takes experience. By the way I dont know how to fail, never have, never will. I always get the job done.
 
By the way if your color blind enough to stand behind the JD 2020 then that is all I need to know about you. Thank you, have a great day!
 
Never failed? Seems to me you've failed miserably trying to change what I've posted.

I stated that the proper repair info is needed and told the guy where to download a CAV repair manual. Factory repair manuals state cleary how to OD useful life of parts, how to check fit by feel and appearance, etc. Most also give good diagrams and photos.

So, yes - I stated a person with mechanical skills and WITH a repair manual could probably figure it out. What I didn't expect is someone like you - desparately trying to change the essence of what I stated. Again, what the heck is your problem?

ONE thing seems clear. YOU have never looked closely at an injcction pump manual - or you wouldn't be making these inane complaints.
 
I never tried to change what you said. As others posted the same thoughts I did about you making it sound as easy as changing a tire.I have worked on rotary and inline pumps before, if it is as easy as you stated then alot more people would be doing it. What is your problem? You have yet to see my point of view. I at least understand where you are coming from. but disagree somewhat. I can tell your at least over 40 years of age, because your close minded and wont listen to anyone else, and I have read your posts for the last few years and come to that conclusion. Now I understand why you have been to so many training schools... probably cause you changed jobs alot because people got fed up trying to argue with you.
 
Hmmm. You now claim that people over 40 years of age are close-minded? Seems to me - you have just showed how closed-minded YOU are Stuart.

And you also reject the idea that some people can actually figured out how to fix injection pumps - at HOME. Seems that's a bit closed-minded also, Stuart.

I'll show you how "open minded" I am. Show me where I have ever implied, alluded to, or actually used the word "easy" when it comes to working on fuel injection pumps - and I'll acquiesce.

Come on Stuart - show me.

Just because you may, or may not of - found a few sychophants to support your myopic point of view, it proves nothing.

Also, in regard to me going to so many training schools. It's because I worked for many dealers as I kept moving further "upstate." That was to escape development and raise my kids in rural farming areas - which I'm still doing.

I would have been sent to schools every winter by Deere, regardless if I worked for one dealer for 40 years, or I moved around and worked for ten of them. I was shop foreman at two dealerships - so I suppose I got along with at least a few people. If YOU had been there, I suspect you'd gotten fired pretty quick. You are too emotional, have poor reading skills, and obviously lack mechanical expertise.

This is an old-tractor forum and I know some people here have those skills, and even a few want to trade tech-info back and forth. That is all I'm guilty of.
 
Hey Stuart . . . I've got three Allis Chalmers dozers, one Pettibone backhoe, one Allis Chalmers backhoe, one Ford backhoe, one International backhoe, one Case backhoe, three Oliver Cletrac crawlers, five International Harvester farm tractors, three Case farm tractors, one Shaw farm tractor, and one Ford farm tractor.

Now - with Deere - I have two Deere crawlers, one Deere farm tractor, and one Deere backhoe.

You call that "color blind?" I'd admit my AC HD4, Oliver OC46, AC backhoe, and my Case 580CK are sort-of yellow - but not Deere yellow.

And you call me "close minded?"
 
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