The tractor business...on the side.

I’ve got a full time desk job but I’m planning to go into business doing tractor work on the side…I hope to avoid some trial and error along with wasted effort and money by asking you guys advice. I don’t plan of making it a full time job – just extra “Hobby” income. The fact that I have a regular job to live off of means I can afford be selective about the work I take on…The tractor doesn’t cost anything when it’s sitting at home under its shelter …and although I plan to upgrade my tractor – I will not be taking out a loan to purchase it so NO loan payments.
I’ve currently got a 1950 Ford 8N(it’s ok to laugh) in perfect running order along with a way to haul it. I’ve done several jobs with it so I know what it’s capable of. I also know I need a larger more modern tractor w/FEL if I plan to grow the business. I’ve got some money set aside to upgrade and plan to as soon as I find the right tractor, which is part of the reason for this post.
One thing that I love about the 8N I have besides the fact that it’s a chick-magnet, is the cost of repair/maintenance. This thing is CHEAP to repair/operate and maintain….I know that is likely to change when I get a modern tractor 
Speaking from near-complete ignorance, I’m thinking a used 40-45 HP 4wd Diesel Kubota/MF or New Holland w/a Front End loader in the $5K price range. That’s about the size tractor that I can haul w/my current truck/trailer. In the interest of reducing potential repair costs…I plan to look for a standard transmission – no hydrostatic or shuttle shifts.
I’d appreciate any input from you guys about my endeavor…including explanations as to the depth of my ignorance  I’ve got a thick skin and won’t be offended.
If any of you guys are in the same business, I’d love to hear what types of jobs and customers are your most common, how you advertise and what you generally charge. I won’t be competing w/you unless you live near Tallahassee. Florida.
Thanks!

What kind of work a were you planning to do? Loader work would be 100 times faster with a skid steer. You would be better to get a tractor with a minimum 40 HP and live PTO and look at doing mowing and rototilling jobs. Advertise in community papers if you have them there. I don't think you get set up properly with only a $5000 budget. You'd have to make a lot of money to pay off your investment and there's no guarantee's you'd get any work. Then you'd have increased maintenance for your new machines. If you had work lined up before you went in head first would be the way to go. Otherwise it's a big gamble. Do you know how much competition you have or what the going rates are, etc.? Landscaping type work is usually pretty cut throat unless you have long time customers or built up a good reputation. I ran a skid steer and would have people get 10 different estimates for a 1 hour job and then try to talk me down because another guy was $5 cheaper than me. Fine, just hire that guy. It was insane sometimes. Other times they complain because you charge a 2 hour minimum. It's not worth loading up and going to the job for less then 2 hours pay. You really need to think carefully about this endeavor. You have a full time job now. You don't want to jeopardize that with a small side business with no guarantee's. Dave

Part time, hobby, or just for kicks, you charge the customer, and you're "commercial".....Truck/trailer/driver needs to comply with DOT, ect. That includes insurance. You need liability insurance, or don't be shocked and/or dismayed when you find out you run the risk of losing everything you'll ever own.

Now...you've paid out all that insurance money... (if you're smart) Then you find out the guy down the street with his "toy" is doing the same work for beer money.

There are guys advertising locally (here) that run 45hp tractors with 6'/7' bush hogs, tillers, ect, and charge (as low as) $25 an hour. You CANNOT pay insurance, taxes, (ie, operate LEGALLY) for that sort of chump change. You'll get all sorts of bad advice that'll tell you to go ahead and work without insurance, proper registration on tow vehicle, ect, but BE SMART and don't listen to them. EITHER do it right, OR avoid being an idiot.

Good luck.

And....If you find a late model 45hp 4wd tractor w/loader for $5000, call the local authorities. It's probably stolen. Expect $10,000 to $15,000 (at a minimum) for a worn out tractor of that description.

quote---"I’m thinking a used 40-45 HP 4wd Diesel Kubota/MF or New Holland w/a Front End loader in the $5K price range."

You find these for this price and we can both make money on them and you won't need to do work with them ! You looking at more like $ 15,000 plus ?
But these new compacts while not likely as heavy duty or parts as low cost as the old 8N will sure do lots of work very comfortable and fast compared to the old 8N.

You don't realize the financial exposure you will be subjecting yourself to. To start you need liability insurance, Your vehicle insurance will change to commercial,DOT registration, etc, Paperwork will overwhelm you. You will have to deal with sales tax issues,get state and federal bussiness IDs to start with. The first time you rip out a cable lead or irrigation system in someones yard, you are going to pay, and if they decide to sue you, you will be in court and paying a lawer. This being said that tractor just setting there doing nothing is costing you money every day. Do yourself and your wife a favor, as she will be the one on the phone dealing with customers and gov. burocrats while you are at your job. Just stick to your job, and enjoy your free time with the family. You will be much happier. $5,000 won't buy you much for tractor and equipment either.

A guy that goes to my church has a small construction business. He has a 45HP Deere 4320 tractor with backhoe and FEL. He gets $50/hour for running this machine. He paid $24k for the machine. I had him over my house last summer doing some work. $200 for 4 hours worth of work. In the winter he is running a F-250 truck with a plow doing snow removal, big V-plow blade. You have to determine the type of work you will do, you will need to have insurance if is anything considerable. Grading a driveway for $60 or $80 is nothing. But it would be semi-safe to do without insurance. I wouldnt dig holes, or do heavy landscape work without insurance. Keep in mind that the insurance bill will be minimum of 10% of your sales. I had 2 excavating contractors tell me this. As far a skid steer loader, a good one is likely $10,000.

A guy I know used to do side jobs. He was asked to quote brush hogging a 10 or 15 acre field that was a fricken mess. Waist high weeds, rocks all over and ant hill mounts. He and a buddy quoted it at $4,500 and they got the job, no one else would touch it. They made a killing, they got lucky. It took a week to do. They had to rent the tractor to do the work. I wouldnt want to mess with it, possibility of running over a wire fence with a rented machine etc, hitting a boulder with the brush hog. It depends on how lucky you get.

first,before you do anything without a doubt,make absolutly sure you are insured as much as possible and in many cases licensed and bonded. start right and STAY right.say you got a job mowing a lot,just a simple residential lot, and hit a gas meter riser(or telephone or electric riser) buried in tall weeds. its not at all unusual for the the repair bill to run $20,000 sometimes that much a hour for something like this. you simply cant afford to do this stuff without insurance anymore!second ,and this is just my opinion, like someone else said,consider a skidsteer.look around at building sites and things ,cleanup on these pays good money,watch for storm cleanup jobs and such,snow removal pays well,and all of these are suited to a skidsteer.try tree and brush clearing,cedar trees are a plague around these parts and a skid steer with a saw and grapple bucket can make good money.for mowing jobs contact realty offices that deal in commercial properties.

do what you dare under the radar //the more you legitemize this hobby into a reputeable business ,the LEAST YOU WILL LIKE IT , REALLY! like ADKASE guy said the buroCRACY will irritate Your poor Wife to Death... driving a wedge ../ In short the American Dream becomes a NITEMARE! , until 30 yrs ago , a guy could enjoy such a enterprise .. sorry to muddy Your pleasanty feel for this idea ,,.. BUT The Modern World is NOT a CHEERY PLACE to Be In Business for those who know all the pitfalls and take precautions, or for those who are kindly naive and only wish to serve and meet epensex.. ignorance pleading will not get you mercy . ,.

I'll second the skid loader comments. When it comes to supplimental income eg custom work my 1856C Case has made me hands down more money than anything else. A small tractor with a small mower is ok, but really mowing is it. I do some mowing work but, for me, I cant make what I need to make running less than a 15 foot mower on 86 to 110 hp.

As to insurance, I'll second everything thats been said. You just cant have enough. Personally, I've only had 3 liability claims, two for worker injuries which were less than a thousand dollars each. One was bad, guys working for me dug up a telephone cable. It was marked, they just took a stoopid pill that day or something. Cost my ins company 28 grand. A pretty good package with 4.5M of liability coverage, farm owners property and casualty, environmental, equine boarding, inland marine, and utility damages runs me a shade under 5 grand a year. So, it takes a certain volume to cover your fixed costs.

As to powerplants. The cheapest tractor I've ever owned was a 560 Long I bought at a sale. Second cheapest was a 1210 Case David Brown. But, the most expensive was a 1410 Case David Brown.

Been a kubota dealer for 38+ years and have watched many a young man grow in to a large landscaping bussiness over the years. But have seen several fold also. FIRST of all IF you are going to get in the bussiness I think you will have to spend more than 5 grand. All that is going to get you is headaches. As the others have posted lots of things depending on what part of the country you are in. Right now housing is off so landscape bussiness or any thing to do with housing is off. You will find if you charge a fair price there is a lot of competion out there willing to cut your price.
I am not a big fan of skid steers but to each his own. Less investment with the little tractor loader and probably a little more versitle. Good luck and everybody has to start somewhere.

consider working for someone else to get so to speal dry behing the ears on this deal/. Possibly grow into buying your own unit to work UNDER HIS INSURANCE. Don't try to revent the wheel. If you can operats a few hours weekely for a growing concern you will have workcomp on you. Don't forgrt getting hurt physicaly doing part-time is as difficult on your wife as if you were full time.

Accounts recievable, the big issue! Before you turn a wheel make sure it is agreed on who is paying and how and when. I have had some bar buddies while having a beer say "That"s a great idea come on over tomorrow and get-r-done" they never paid after 30 some years. Money out money in My rule. Having a businees of your own is very rewarding but requires lots and lots of time involvement more than most realize.Carrying people fianacailly is a no win situation. My two cents worth.CT

Sorry to say the hobby business is from days long gone. I've been in business, my family is in business and do your self a favor, pay attention to the advice of the ones that tell you to be legit. Trust me, it's 100% true when they tell you not being legit can cost you everything you have, maybe everything you ever want to have. Then when you spend the time and money to be legit, as sure as the day is long some chump will cut your throat and stab you in the back to under cut you. Think long and hard about your decision and remember two things above all else. (1) You can make anything work and look good on paper. (2)When you have it all figured out what it will cost you to go in business add 30 to 50% to that figure. Don't want to scare you out just want to lay out some facts for you to consider. Good Luck

I had a buddy have a similar entrepreneurial seizure and started
a tractor work business. Got his 1st job shredding a pasture. He
promptly hit an irrigation line and had to pay to have that fixed.
Next he ran over a broken off T post and tore up a rear tire. No
sooner got that replaced and got going good again and hit a
piece of concrete and tore up the shredder, sheared the pin but
not before bending the blade. This was all before noon. He did
get finished but sure didn't make any money.

I see multiple tractor work startups advertising in the local feed
store,grocery, craigslist etc. None seem to last.

Good luck with all that.

Well I guess I am one of those idiots that thought it would work...9 years ago. I started out using what I had and steadily built up a customer base and added to my equipment. Now I can make a living at it...and I am doing something I enjoy. I may have an advantage, I have been running equipment since I was 6 years old...and I think experience is a must. I use 40+ year old tractors (easy to work on) and newer attachments. I see competitors show up with new equipment and no experience and last a year or two. They get caught up in the game of bidding to pay the bank and in the end don't get enough work. Fortunately I can now claim my work as my main income, so I can show a loss as many years as possible and not fall into the IRS "hobby" status. The key is to think smart, work smart!

I doubt anybody would pay for compact tractor loader when a skid steer would work circles around it. The only thing with a skid steer is that you have to know what you're doing more than with a tractor. You don't just buy a skid steer without ever having run one and expect to be proficient on it. A skid steer can be extremely dangerous with an inexperienced operator. A tractor can be too but a tractor is easier to get the hang of than a skid steer. Dave

Pic of my main money makers....Allis-Chalmers 175D and JD MX8 mower ($75 an hour), another 175D and Howard rotovator ($100+ an hour), and JD 7775 Skidloader ($60 an hour).

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(quoted from post at 04:14:12 02/08/11) Pic of my main money makers....Allis-Chalmers 175D and JD MX8 mower ($75 an hour), another 175D and Howard rotovator ($100+ an hour), and JD 7775 Skidloader ($60 an hour).

&lt;a href="http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c279/ejons/?action=view&amp;current=06-01-09022.jpg" target="_blank"&gt;&lt;img src="http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c279/ejons/06-01-09022.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

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&lt;a href="http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c279/ejons/?action=view&amp;current=05-27-08011-1.jpg" target="_blank"&gt;&lt;img src="http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c279/ejons/05-27-08011-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

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Eldon I really like your setup man. I like how you seem old school and sometimes old school is better. I am so sick and tired of people knocking the older machines and the guys who use them.
On a side note. Can anyone be a little different and not go Kubota? How about a Massey Ferguson??

Yhe compact MF's are good tractors. Dave

You have the best rototiller ever made. Dave

Eldon, What truck do you use to pull that combo with and how does it do? I do mowing on the side and would like to pull my stuff to the job rather than drive it. Not sure if my truck is up to it or not. Just curious.

Thanks for all the input...I certainly appreciate the horror stories about being uninsured. I should have been a little more clear on my intentions and situation.

I live in a neighborhood w/dirt roads that aren't county-maintained...I bought the 8N mainly because I needed to keep the road to my house accessible. Since I've had the tractor - I've been asked to do work for people via word-of-mouth. In addition to the road I live on, I also mow forest roads for a large landowner, a 15 acre field for a church. I've do feed plots and fence mowing for a hunt club and done several drive ways. I realize anyone can sue for any reason, but the work I've done exposed me to very little risk.
I alluded to the fact that since I'm not going to be making payments on anything - I can be very selective about the work I accept and can simply avoid work in areas that may expose me to serious financial risk. Once you have commercial-grade expenses - you HAVE to work the equipment and be less selective about the work you accept simply because your equipment costs money even when sitting.
There is very little liability risk in mowing a forest road - miles from any utilities or any type of infrastructure. Having said that - IF the business grows to the point that I start taking more risky work - I'd certainly cover myself.
I've been shopping tractors for a while - and if I needed a tractor for working 40-50 hours a week reliably, $5K wouldn't get me there....but in the current economy, around where I live - there a lots of tractors in decent(but not new) shape in the $5k range. They would certainly need more TLC than a new one - but they cost less to operate. I could also afford to let a $5K tractor sit where I couldn't let a $15K one. The 8N I have is over 60 years old - has made me lots of money and has never broken down on the job.
My business-plan, such as it is...Inspires me to have faith simply because the only ongoing uncontrollable expense is my time.

I have an 04 Cummins Duallie w/ 6speed. It works great with the bumper pull trailer. I wouldn't need the duallie, but I wanted the option of hauling the slide-in camper when pulling the trailer to shows. Now I don't have time to go to shows....

Yes I guess that is one of my oldest implements, but it is bulletproof. I am up to 80 gardens that I till in a year, so it gets a workout. Just put a new set of tines on last week getting ready for another busy season. $250 in tines lasts 2-3 seasons...not bad considering I till where others won't.

in all honesty youd be better off with a massey ferguson 135, 150 or 165. Great little tractors that are really efficient and run forever. Hate to tell you but they dont make stuff like they used to. your 8n will outlast the kubota youre talking about.

Thanks. I have a 3/4 ton and with about 8000 lbs of tractor I'm not too sure about it. Picked up a decent trailer that would haul it but the brakes are out on it, so I haven't tried it yet. Need to be able to stop before I can go.

I have the best of both worlds....an Allis with the 4.248 Perkins. I usually gross about $1000 on each tank of diesel that I run thru it. The AC has the hand clutch hi/neutral/lo that runs in oil and can be slipped all day on that mower and it won't hurt a thing. That is great for tight spaces, tough going or dangerous areas. It is easily operated standing up, and that is how I mow most of the time since I am in rock country and I have better visibility standing up. On the tilling tractor, I like the AC setup because I do a lot of small fenced areas and I can depress the foot clutch and kill everything but the hydraulics. I grew up on a MF135D, it is a handy tractor, but a bit small when you want to get things done!

The county roads aren't maintained? What are you paying taxes for? Do you realize that if you maintain the road and someone hits the ditch for what ever reason, you can be held liable if they're injured or their vehicle receives damage? That's what I was told by the county. Just because your 8N has never broke down doesn't mean another tractor will be as reliable. I wish I knew when my equipment was going to break down. I could have saved a ton of money on repairs. What if something happened and you end up leaking oil all over someones lawn or accidentally hit a building or a fence or throw a rock? That's what insurance is for. You asked for opinions on your idea but don't seem to want to accept the advice offered. Yes your idea to make some extra money could work but you still need to protect yourself. Liabilty insurance will probably be in the $800 to $1000 range, maybe less if it's only part time. It's a cost of doing business. I'm guessing you weren't planning to report this extra income? Don't let the IRS find out. You might be better off to just continue what you're doing instead of trying to get bigger. Dave

(quoted from post at 08:11:23 02/08/11) Yhe compact MF's are good tractors. Dave

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Yup but it seems like Kubota is where it's at right now I guess.

The county I live doesn't maintain lots of roads...They provide signs for the road-name but attach "This road not maintained by X county". FTR: I also don't have garbage collection but pay for it through my property taxes
The way our deeds are set up - our property lines go to the middle of the road and there is a right-of-way easement that covers "my side" of the road...and the neighbor across the street owns up to my property line w/the same easement going back - thus making a road that is basically owned by the people that live along it. It's also stated that each owner is responsible for maintaining the road that is on their property.
I don't have a lot of choice about maintaining the road - if I don't it quickly becomes a 4wd only road. That wasn't a problem till my wife got a civic

One other odd issue w/my neighborhood - it was originally ALL PAVED. In fact - the section in front of my house still is....but that's about it - the rest of the road looks as if it never was. Out of fear and bickering over the years - No one maintained it and it just got worse and worse over the decades till now it's basically just a dirt road neightborhood with a few hundred feet of pavement in one area.

I did ask for opinions and I appreciate the input - The info and advice has given me pause about what direction to take. At this point, I don't know what I'll do in the long run....I will be getting a different tractor even if I just use it to maintain access to my property. What I do beyond that is still a question mark for me.

(quoted from post at 00:39:18 02/09/11) The county roads aren't maintained? What are you paying taxes for? Do you realize that if you maintain the road and someone hits the ditch for what ever reason, you can be held liable if they're injured or their vehicle receives damage? That's what I was told by the county. Just because your 8N has never broke down doesn't mean another tractor will be as reliable. I wish I knew when my equipment was going to break down. I could have saved a ton of money on repairs. What if something happened and you end up leaking oil all over someones lawn or accidentally hit a building or a fence or throw a rock? That's what insurance is for. You asked for opinions on your idea but don't seem to want to accept the advice offered. Yes your idea to make some extra money could work but you still need to protect yourself. Liabilty insurance will probably be in the $800 to $1000 range, maybe less if it's only part time. It's a cost of doing business. I'm guessing you weren't planning to report this extra income? Don't let the IRS find out. You might be better off to just continue what you're doing instead of trying to get bigger. Dave

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