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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Farmall M no spark

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astroman

04-30-2007 11:42:57




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For reasons I have yet to figure out my 1949 M will not start this year. There is no spark. I thought the condenser was bad, replaced that, no go. I found a bad ignition switch and a bad ignition wire, fixed those and still no spark. I checked all the other ignition wires, they are good. I have confirmed that voltage is at the coil when the igntion switch is on. I measured the coil, from the center post to either of the two nuts reads about 7000 ohms, and across the two nuts is 1.8 ohms. Does anyone know what a good coil should measure? Can't understand why so much went bad over the winter... it ran fine in the fall. Anyone have any other ideas to try?

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astroman

04-30-2007 16:38:49




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
Thanks to all who replied, I am going to print off all of these replies. Unfortunately I ran out of time to test things today and I won't get a chance to try again until next weekend. The M is at my parent's house in MA. I have a 47 C here at my house, the ignition system looks nearly identical (as far as the coil is concerned) and the C works... I may swap some parts as well to see if it helps the M. My C started up on the first try after winter, but then again it is garaged all the time (the M sits out under a tarp.

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A. Bohemian

04-30-2007 15:00:17




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 Ask Your Friendly Ammeter in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
Note: the following test is quickly and easily run as it does not involve connecting or disconnecting anything. All you have to do is put your butt in the seat and OBSERVE...

What does the ammeter read when you turn on the ignition WITHOUT cranking?

It should show approx. 4 amps discharge.

No discharge? Points are bad, open, or there is an open somewhere else. The points are not likely to be open; the engine almost always comes to rest with them closed.

If there is no current flow, old and the others may well be right; Kettering systems like to be started now and again to make sure the surface of the points stays viable. You can perhaps clean them; others can help you better than I with that task.

Normal 4 amp discharge? Crank the motor. The ammeter should fluctuate as the points open and then close and the current flow stops and starts again.

No fluctuation? The points are not opening for some reason or there is a short somewhere.

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chadd

04-30-2007 16:28:58




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 Re: Ask Your Friendly Ammeter in reply to A. Bohemian, 04-30-2007 15:00:17  
I am not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but the needle on our Farmall M with a Delco distributor does not deflect whatsoever even when everything is set correctly. When troubleshooting a while ago, I decided to see if there was an ignition problem. I turned the ignition on with my dad on the seat and rotated the distributor as far as was possible. He said that it never once moved the ammeter needle. I figured that meant there was a problem, so I replaced the points, condenser, checked the advance springs, cleaned the connections, replaced the cap, rotor, and wires. I attempted the same procedure again to re-time the distributor, and my dad was right, again there was no deflection on the needle. I hit the starter, and the engine fired to life and ran really poorly, as the timing was off. I turned the distributor body until I got it running perfectly and then shut it down. Did the test again, and still no deflection. It deflects when the lights are turned on, and deflects varying amounts depending on the setting of the lights. It also shows charge when the tractor is started. Maybe the ignition system is getting its power from the battery and not going through the ammeter? I am pretty sure it gets power from in the light box though. . .

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John M

04-30-2007 17:59:16




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 Re: Ask Your Friendly Ammeter in reply to chadd, 04-30-2007 16:28:58  
Mine too. Thats one reason I kinda bow out of electrical discussions as it seems what everybody else says, nothing of mine does.All I know is when I turn on the lights without it running it discharges,kill switch, dont move.The only one of mine that does it is my 154.



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old

04-30-2007 13:24:29




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
Most likely the points if this is the first time you have tried to fire it up after sittin all winter. Points corroded over the winter just from sitting



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Andy Motteberg

04-30-2007 13:05:28




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
Check the points and make sure you have good plug wires. Andy.



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El Toro

04-30-2007 13:04:52




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
You need to rub those points with some 320 wet or dry until they are shiny. Then take a cotton swab dipped in alcohol and clean them several times with the swab. Then see if the engine will start. Hal
PS: You may need to reinstall the old condenser.



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glennster

04-30-2007 12:24:16




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
could be dirty points too. here is my down and dirty, check it in the field cause i broke down method. pull distrib cap and dust cover off to access points. pull coil wire, and either use another spark plug or take one from the engine. use the spark plug wire, put one end in the coil, hook up the plug to the other end and lay it agains the motor so the plug is grounded and you can see the gap. put tractor in neutral to be safe. turn the ignition on, and use a small screwdriver to open and close the points, see if plug sparks. you may need to roll the motor over till the points close, and then open them a few times with the screwdriver, if nothing, use the screwdriver to open the point arm and then ground it to the distributor body. if it sparks, you need to clean the points. if not, check the wire from distrib to coil, sometimes they short out where it goes into the distrib. , then change condenser, if still no go, change the coil.

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John T

04-30-2007 12:22:40




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
Astro, The coils ohms readings sound pretty good HOWEVER a simple low voltage test ONLY tells if a coil is definitely bad (open winding) but NOT if its necessarlly good at high voltage and at operating temperatures i.e the primary n seconday may ohms check good n continuous but high voltage breakdown can happen at high voltage and once shes warmed up.

My test immediately below tells how to check if its a coil problem or a cap n rotor type problem. Its wayyyyy y more then you need but if you work through it the problem ought to become apparrent using only a simple teats lamp n maybe a volt ohm meter. YES even new condensors can be bad, try to remove it n see if she fires then n if so it may be bad/shorted. It will still fire with NO CONDENSOR AT ALL (in case its shorted) but it will be weaker.

Make sure theres no shorts in the lil side out stud/terminal into the distributir where the coil wire attaches !!!!! Also make sure the condensor wire or the points arent shorted when open !!!

TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!! !!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.


MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK


1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,, ,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.


2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test.

3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,, ,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,, ,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,, ,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,, ,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,, ,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,, ,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,, ,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,, ,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,, ,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,, ,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,, ,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are baddddd ddddd . Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.


John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.

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wh

04-30-2007 11:59:25




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to astroman, 04-30-2007 11:42:57  
do you have fire at the points when they break? if so, and no fire at the plugs then you have a bad condensor.



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wh - and yes - - -

04-30-2007 12:01:24




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 Re: Farmall M no spark in reply to wh, 04-30-2007 11:59:25  
you can buy a bad condensor. i just had to put the one i took out of an H back in when i put new points in last week. would not start. was running fine until i put the new parts in. took the new condensor out and put the old one back in and started fine.



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