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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Still no start

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CNKS

05-19-2007 18:26:25




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460 gas -- good spark, new plugs, good points and condensor, spark to plugs jumps 1/4" plus. Everything new or rebuilt inside block, new wiring harness, wired according to operator's manual, no corrosion, good grounds, etc. Carb cleaned and rebuilt, all passages confirmed clean. Static timed to TDC on #1, intake and exhaust valves closed, not 180 degrees off. 99% sure it is not an electrical problem. After much cranking, an occasional "starter speedup", it may have fired one time very briefly. The spark plugs are dry. Shouldn't they at least be damp after a lot of cranking? Apparantly not getting fuel to the plugs -- good fuel flow out of tank into carb. 460 has 2 piece mainfold with heat control valve. Valve was stuck open, I broke a couple of bolts trying to disassemble, messed up holes trying to get bolts unstuck, got new IH exhaust manifold first, but the holes were messed up in the intake enough that I had to get a new intake two. Intake is aftermarket. Does not line up exactly with the IH exhaust, but with the gasket, I don't think it leaks, not positive. IF I have a small suction leak somewhere where the intake is not perfectly fitted, will that destroy the ability for the gas to get to the plugs -- I have run out of things to do. Carb has been off twice, I have adjusted static timing from TDC to 4 degrees advance with no luck. The distributer and carb worked fine before disassembly. Any ideas are appreciated. Probably some dumb mistake I made similar to the one when I could not get any spark a couple of days ago.

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Brownie450

05-20-2007 11:43:42




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
Is the manifold hanging up on the manifold bolts/ studs, or is it not flat? If it hangs up on the bolts/ studs, you could ream the mounting holes to the next size & see if the fit is better. If it is not flat, to get the tractor running, use 2 intake gaskets with Permatex# 1 or epoxy metal between them to take up the gap. This route would only be a temporary fix until you had more time.



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T_Bone

05-20-2007 04:09:43




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
Hi CNKS,

If'n it were mine, I'd shoot some propane into the air intake. If it starts or trys to start on LP then it's a fuel problem. Any engine can run on propane without damage for a short time. If you've never tried this, you might try this on a running engine so you can see just how much propane to add to make the engine run well.

If no pop at all with LP, then I'd run a temp hot wire to the coil direct from the battery. If it pops or trys to pop, then add the propane in the intake. To stop the engine from running just remove the jumper wire from the battery. What this does is bypass any wiring or componet problems on the electrical side.

Still no pop, then most likely a mechanical timing problem.

T_Bone

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CNKS

05-20-2007 05:54:53




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 Re: Still no start in reply to T_Bone, 05-20-2007 04:09:43  
Thanks, I have a very visible gap between the head and the intake manifold, little or no fuel to the cylinders.



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MN Scott

05-20-2007 07:54:12




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-20-2007 05:54:53  
What brand of intake manifold gasket did you use? When I replaced the one on my 706 I got a sandwich type gasket from A&I. I had the same problem a gap. I went to the dealer and bought the IH one that is a flat peice of tin with thick sealing rings around the intake ports, problem solved. Also you gotta torque those bolts down tight and don't tighten the two manifolds together untill you tighten the block to intake bolts first.

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turbos10

05-19-2007 22:02:42




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
Any machine shop should be able to true up that manifold on a mill, so it is not a total loss.

Have you checked to be sure the firing order is not backwards? Just a thought if distributor rotation is backwards from what you thought.

I would think even with a vaccum leak, you could get some kind of responce.



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CNKS

05-20-2007 05:57:38




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 Re: Still no start in reply to turbos10, 05-19-2007 22:02:42  
Firing order is not reversed, It does occasionally try to fire, but that leak has to be fixed.



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El Toro

05-20-2007 06:37:01




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-20-2007 05:57:38  
Hold your hand over the carburetor throat and see if there's good suction. We used this on cars and trucks that wouldn't start that had mechanical fuel pumps. Even with a bad pump the engine would start as long as you covered the carburetor throat. I would be looking for another
manifold too. It has to be a fuel problem.

If you need to move the tractor find someone with
a winch. They may be able to haul that tractor on
a rollback. My old Army buddy has one and he hauls all his antique Army vehicles for display.
Hal

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CNKS

05-20-2007 05:52:41




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 Re: Still no start in reply to turbos10, 05-19-2007 22:02:42  
Yes, I have thought of that. But, all intake runners or ports have to be milled, and that is a pretty wide gap. I don't think it will make the cast too thin, but I have not examined it closely yet, will do so this morning.



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Tom Windsor

05-19-2007 21:27:02




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
This is about the place where I curse a little and kick it. Quit working on it and go away and think a little about it. Usually I am too close to the problem to see the problem. A think break will solve it.

TW



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CNKS

05-19-2007 20:47:04




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
Carburetor is adjusted to specs, nothing to that part of it. But, my worst suspicions are confirmed. Chinese intake manifold does not fit against the head properly. Used a light and mirror to look at underside. About a 1 inch long, 1/16 inch thick gap between head and manifold gasket. Probably enough to mess up the mixture, possibly cause it not to get into the engine at all. I might be able to wiggle it around enough to start the engine, I doubt it. Only correct answer is a new manifold. I am moving in a couple of months and have to get my house ready for sale. All I need to do at this time is be able to get the tractor on a trailer to move it. Might be able to find a winch somewhere. Far as doing any more work on the tractor, I am out of time. Thanks very much for all your help.

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Jossette

05-19-2007 19:35:32




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
try the screw at the bottom of the bowl. turn it out a crank or two to see if it is to lean



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Owen Aaland

05-19-2007 19:33:37




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
With the choke closed you should be able to draw enough fuel from the carb bowl to have it leak out the packing in the bottom of the carb. If not, make sure that you do not have the fuel bowl gasket installed upside down. If installed upside down the bowl vent will be covered and even though the fuel level will be correct in the bowl you will not be able to draw any fuel from the bowl. Also make sure the venturi is installed correctly, It will fit upside down. The narrowest part must be at the top of the metering tube.

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CNKS

05-19-2007 20:52:05




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 Re: Still no start in reply to Owen Aaland, 05-19-2007 19:33:37  
Thanks, the carb does leak out the weep hole, the gasket is correct. On this carb, I don't think you can get the venturi upside down. Any way it fits mostly inside the throttle body, and rests in the lip of the bowl.



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Gene-AL

05-19-2007 19:19:28




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
CNKS

Does the choke butterfly actually close for start-up? You should be able to get those plugs wet with the choke on.
Just a thought...



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El Toro

05-19-2007 19:00:33




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
Hold your hand over the carburetor throat and see if there's good suction on your hand. You need good intake manifold vacuum to pull that atomized
fuel into the combustion chambers. You can hold your hand over the carburetor throat while someone makes an attempt to start the engine. If the engine doesn't fire or start squirt some gas into one of sparkplug holes and see the engine fires when you make an attempt to start. Have you checked your plug wires to make sure they're in the correct firing order. 1-5-3-6-2-4 and they need to go on the cap depending which way the rotor rotates. You need to sleep on it, you will get it started. Hal

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CNKS

05-19-2007 19:08:15




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 Re: Still no start in reply to El Toro, 05-19-2007 19:00:33  
Firing order has been checked multiple times. Will try the suction test. I kind of hate to squirt the gas in because I am afraid I will wash the "starting oil" off the walls of my "new" engine -- might have to though. Thanks.



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georgeky

05-19-2007 19:25:03




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 19:08:15  
Try a little WD-40 it will start on it as well.



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KEB

05-19-2007 18:59:48




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 Re: Still no start in reply to CNKS, 05-19-2007 18:26:25  
Hi, yes a vacuum leak can result in a mixture too lean to fire. I've had decent luck finding vacuum leaks with aerosol carburetor cleaner - close the choke all the way, crank the engine, spray carb cleaner around the edges of the manifold and anywhere else there may be a leak. If there's a major vacuum leak, the engine should fire when you spray carb cleaner into the leak.

Be careful you don't accidently ignite the carb cleaner - some of its pretty flamable.

Another way to check is to put your hand over the carburetor throat and crank. You should feel a strong pull - if you don't, there's likely a significant vacuum leak somewhere. If you're really, really lucky, you might be able to hear the leak hissing when you crank with the carburetor throat covered.

Good luck, keep up posted.

Keith

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