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Dumb question of the day

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Mike CA

12-05-2006 08:24:12




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Last time I was up with my tractor and we were getting it fired up, and neighbor came by who I was told has expereince in such things and said "That old Flat Head sounds pretty good!"

What does "Flat Head" refer to? It's a straight 4 cylinder, but I've no idea what that term is used for.




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Honest Jon

12-05-2006 16:58:32




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Perhaps he meant yourself. We're you talking?



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sgtbull

12-05-2006 16:57:59




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Wanna get really confused? How about and "F" head....(no, not a derogatory slur!) An "F" head was the type of engine used in earlier Jeep models, such as the M38A1 or the later CJ-5 (I think CJ stood for "civilian jeep" but that's just a guess). The "F" head had 4 of the valves in the head and 4 of the valves in the block...You pop the valve cover and see only 4 rocker arms on a 4 cylinder engine... first time I did that, I stood there dumbfounded for a bit, trying to figure out what I was looking at! Its a learning curve thing. You'd think "F" head was a flat head wouldn't you?

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KEB

12-05-2006 15:50:11




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Mike, ignore the knucklehead comments below.

In a flat head engine, the valves are in the block beside the cylinder, instead of in the cylinder head above the piston. The combustion chamber is kind of oblong shaped to cover the top of the individual cylinder and extend out over the top of the associated valves. From the outside, the top of the cylinder head is more or less flat, with the spark plugs sticking directly out the top. In a flathead engine, the manifolds are mounted to the block, in an overhead valve engine the manifolds are mounted to the cylinder head, since that"s where the valves are located.

In the flathead engines I"ve seen, the valve lifters ride directly on the camshaft & push directly on the bottom of the valve stems. No pushrods, rocker arms, etc.

Most automative engines were flatheads up until the 50"s & early 60"s. I"m assuming it was because they were cheaper to produce, as they certainly didn"t have any performance advantage over a overhead valve engine.

Kind of suprised me that tractors from the 1920"s had overhead valve engines when most of the autos were using flatheads.

Keith

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banjo

12-05-2006 15:00:24




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Mike, If i had a camera ,i'd take a picture for you to show you a flat head. I have the hood off my cub and it is a really thin head compared to a head with valves in it.this head might be 2" thick at the most with the spark plugs directly in the top of it straight up and down.



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Steven@AZ

12-05-2006 11:48:10




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
There is a very distinct sound to a Ford Flathead V-8, and the H sounds nothing like it.

Perhaps he was thinking of the Cub which used a flathead engine for many years...

Either way, as already stated, the H is overhead valve (OHV).



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El Toro

12-05-2006 10:46:09




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Those flathead Ford engines up until 1953 didn't
have any adjustment on the valves. The stems of the valves had to be ground. Some lawn mower and garden tractor engines had the same setup.

The men that ran moonshine years ago used those Fords with the flathead engines and when they weren't doing that they raced one another on dirt tracks. That was probably the start of NASCAR.

We did have a 500hp Ford engine with overhead valves that was used in Tanks and the M7 Mobile Field Dynamometer that the Army had at Aberdeen Proving Ground. The M7 used 2 of these engines for power. The engines were made in the 40's. Hal

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dhermesc

12-05-2006 10:12:52




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
As others have pointed out the H is an over head valve (OHV) design similar to that being used in most engines today except for those that use the overhead cam (OHC) (Ford Triton Series etc). Many larger modern engines still use the "older" overhead valve with pushrods - all the Dodge and Chevy V8s use it and Ford is going back to OHV engine with pushrods with its new "Hurricane" engine. They just can't get as much power out of its Triton V8s as the competition without resorting to blowers and turbos and multiple valves.

The flathead was the "older" design that most manufacturers left behind in the 30s except for Ford and Chrysler (switched in the 50s) and the smaller engines used on lawnmowers. The flat head is limited in its power potential. The best example is the Ford flathead V8 was out powered by the standard Chevy inline 6 through most of the 40s and into the early 50s.

Today even lawnmower engines are using OHV designs to get more power.

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jakee

12-05-2006 14:54:28




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to dhermesc, 12-05-2006 10:12:52  
no the hurricane motor will not be a pushrod motor.first of all they do not make as mutch HP or the milage is real bad also emissions is what killed the 460 and the 300 six, they were great motors.compare the old lightning truck with the 351-w motor to the modern lightning with the 331 sohc motor ,the later was by far mutch better, milage and performance. yes you say the later has a blower but at only 8 pounds , hell the heater motor puts about that mutch .i have had both trucks and the up keap mutch less withe 5.4 motor.chevy has been the only one to produce the kind of power they do with a pushrod motor,they have also had years to do it,also it was a great motor right from the start.the hemi only makes great horsepower when you put a puffer on it.it is very doubtfull ford will ever retool for a pushrod motor ever agin.

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scotc

12-05-2006 19:26:26




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to jakee, 12-05-2006 14:54:28  
No, the hemi makes lots of power at the top end, so ya gotsa put 4.10 or 4.56 gears behind it instead of 3.10"s like your pontiac or chevy and a loose torque convertor for drag racing. And if"n it"s no good without forced induction, how come so many drag racers of all different makes are using (usually aftermarket) hemi engines?



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jakee

12-05-2006 19:39:51




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to scotc, 12-05-2006 19:26:26  
read NHRA news paper and see what holds the world records, there might be 10 records held by hemis,small block chevy has set or holds more records than all other motors combined.



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Alaskan

12-05-2006 10:08:16




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Google works as well.



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Mike CA

12-05-2006 13:00:33




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Alaskan, 12-05-2006 10:08:16  
Google? What is that?

Really, I ask questions here because people tell me things specific to old Farmalls that a Google search may not bring to light.

So, your pissy little comment is really unnecessary.



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Alaskan

12-05-2006 14:27:20




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 13:00:33  
What's with the attitude Mike?
As you see, a flathead engine has nothing whatsoever to do with a farmall, which a google search would have told you.



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houzadagan?!?

12-05-2006 17:45:29




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Alaskan, 12-05-2006 14:27:20  
If Mike's Cub has an factory-installed engine that isn't a flathead, he has a rare treasure indeed.



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Nat 2

12-05-2006 09:28:52




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Maybe he meant FAT head? :)

Like others have said, flat head means no valves in the head. Also sometimes called an "L-head" engine if I"m not mistaken for the shape of the combustion chamber when looked at from the crankshaft end of the engine with X-ray goggles. With the piston at the bottom, it looks like an upside-down, fat L.

The old Briggs & Strattons (non-OHV) are flatheads. Flathead heads are not really flat on the outside, obviously, but they are flat-er than an overhead valve engine.

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NO tools

12-05-2006 09:08:15




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
He was'nt talking bout your tractor?
he was talk to himself.
You just heard him out lound?
Bill



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Allan In NE

12-05-2006 08:53:53




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Yeah Mike,

Ya have to weed these types out in your own mind and just remember to disregard anything that fellow ever tells you in the future. :>)

Allan



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CNKS

12-05-2006 08:49:52




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Look around for a pre 1953 Ford tractor, 2N/9N/8N. Those are flatheads. Valves in block, spark plugs screwed vertically in the head. Ford cars and trucks, along with Chrylser, used flatheads until the early-mid 50's. Chevrolet had valve in head sometimes called "overhead valve" engines during the same time period.



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Aaron B

12-05-2006 08:46:09




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Maybe if you smash the valve cover really hard with a BFH, this could be considered a flat head. LOL, but no, the farmall H never had a flat head.



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Rustyfarmall

12-05-2006 08:39:58




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
Mike, I guess you just found out there is a difference between real experience and self appointed experts. Your H does not have a flathead engine.



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Red Dave

12-05-2006 08:26:52




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 Re: Dumb question of the day in reply to Mike CA, 12-05-2006 08:24:12  
A flat head is an engine with the valves in the block, not in the head. Like a lawnmower engine.

I thought you had an H? An H is NOT a flathead. It is an overhead valve engine.



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