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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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HELP !! 300 UTILITY

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tom nj

02-17-2007 15:52:02




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High guys, I need your expert advice again! I wrote in a couple of months ago about a International 300U that someone gave me. I asked about adding a pto, and you guys gave me all the info. Let me give you a little info before I tell you my problem. The tractor is all original and 100% complete, the guy that gave it to me purchased it new and used it to plow his parking lot with the Lords front loader that is on it. The tractor ser.# is 32775 and the engine ser# is 13356 with a c175 embossed under it. This is mystery number one since the 300 is supposed to come with only a c169 engine. All the emblems, etc say 300 but this would be a 350 engine..any thoughts? Okay now for the hard part. I purchased a Independent pto and the coupling shaft with the two coupling sleeves. This morning I went to install it and after draining out about 8 gallons of smelly, waterlogged oil from the transmission, I found that the spline on the transmission shaft is larger than the coupling and spline on the connection shaft. The shaft in the trans looks like it has a bushing for a pilot shaft internally as well as an external spine. I spent the afternoon going through the original parts manual, the IT. shop manual, and the original IH blue ribbon 300 series service manual and I'm really confused. From what I can get from all this is that maybe I have the trans shaft for a non-continuous (transmission driven) pto, or could the connecting shaft I have be for a Farmall and maybe is a smaller diameter? If anyone has any insight it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe(hopefully!) I just need the right connecting shaft. The length and everything else looks like it will work fine. The tractor doesn't have and never did have a TA if that helps any. Thank you guys for your time, I'm new at this stuff, but I'm willing to try anything and I learn a heck of alot from reading your forum. Tom

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tom nj

02-18-2007 10:35:14




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
Thank you again guys for all the info! I think I have it straightened out. I do have the shaft in the trans for a trans drive pto but I guess from all the replys it was a little confusing. Anyway, I learned something, so it wasn't a wasted day. I have one "stupid" question... If I were to get a trans driven pto shaft and I cut the end off and welded it to the ipto shaft and had it balanced do you think it would work? I know there are gear reductions involved with the ipto so I don't want my brush hog to turn into a whirlybird. I know I'm crazy, but any thoughts?

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Hugh MacKay

02-18-2007 15:13:44




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-18-2007 10:35:14  
Tom: If that IPTO is good you can probably trade it for the transmission driven type and be money in. Put the IPTO in photo adds, I bet you'll have a buyer within two weeks. Price out the other one first, then add 50% for a price on your IPTO. You'll have the 50% to buy an overrunning clutch.

I've never looked at where reductions take place from engine to PTO on either system, however we do know PTO speed is aproximately 1/3 of engine speed. I suspect this does not occur in same area and at same rate. I don't think I'd trust that weld on shaft you are proposing. The nuts and bolts of this are it's just not worth the effort, not even the effort to open the parts book page to check ratios.

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TDK

02-17-2007 21:12:37




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
Tom, you described the tractor shaft perfectly. This is all fresh on my mind because we just rebuilt a trans/diff. in a 330 this week. Your tractor was meant for the trans. driven pto. The shaft on pto has a pilot that fits into the pilot hole you mention & it has a hollow tube with splines that will cog up with the splines on the tractor shaft when engaged. You need to find a trans. driven pto, as changing tractor over to IPTO will be a lot of trouble and probably expensive. Hope you get it worked out.

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D Slater

02-17-2007 18:56:36




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
First off the tractor serial # would be a 300 because 350 didn't go that high. I belive your engine is not original because even though you have a late 300 U and if some could have had the C 175 put in them, your engine serial # is to high. There's a lot of 350 with a lower engine serial #. Bad news on the PTO,if your tractor has a transmission driven PTO and no T/A. That type has no oil flow to the center housing and you have to remove it and then add seals and all parts needed in it for IPTO. Your pressure plate may have the splined hub rivited on to turn IPTO shaft, if not that would need added. The pressure plate for IPTO will work for both non live and live. Next if the counter shaft in your trans. is one piece its has to change to hollow shaft.Don't remember on 300, but some tractors used spline on end of counter shaft that could be removed and shaft used for both type PTO. The shifting sleeve and PTO shaft from a non live 300 tractor is the same as most H tractors used and as you found different than live.

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Wardner

02-17-2007 20:24:05




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to D Slater, 02-17-2007 18:56:36  
Dave, that is interesting about the oil. All one has to do is pull the horizontal drain plug at the front of the center section to determine if the IPTO was installed. That sounds easier than removing and reinstalling the cover plates on the center section or the PTO opening at the rear.



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Hugh MacKay

02-17-2007 18:44:18




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
Tom: Based on discussion between you and Wardner, your tractor has to be equipped for transmission driven PTO. I am basing this on your discussion.

There have been several discussions about this lately. Are you one of the guys, I suggested tieing clutch pedal down. If you go to back of tractor, you should be able to see the shaft that PTO couples to. With clutch pedal down if you can turn that internal shaft the tractor is equipped for transmission driven PTO, if you can't turn the shaft tractor must be equipped for IPTO. There is no, "ands, iffs or butts on this one, and is not based on discussion, just cold hard facts."

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JayWalt

02-17-2007 18:54:47




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-17-2007 18:44:18  
hugh, my tractor has a suffix for an ipto provision. From another post, I understood that not having a TA (which mine doesnt), forces me to use a tranny driven pto. If thats the case, why is there A "P" suffix which is supposed to indicate IPTO gearing for tractors without a TA, on my serial tag.

reference :

Link


Just trying to figure this mess out...

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D Slater

02-17-2007 19:03:27




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to JayWalt, 02-17-2007 18:54:47  
They could be had with live PTO and no T/A. Also with a T/A and no live PTO. Also no T/A and no live PTO.



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D Slater

02-17-2007 20:21:34




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to D Slater, 02-17-2007 19:03:27  
Jay,see if this is understandable. On tractors with no T/A or live pto power for pto goes through clutch shaft trans, input shaft, constant mesh gear and counter shaft which drives pto shaft. For live pto tractors power goes from pressure plate through a hollow shaft with gear made on shaft.(clutch shaft to drive trans or T/A goes through it) Gear on shaft drives a gear on shaft in lower center housing this is connected to another shaft that goes through hollow counter shaft then another shaft from there to pto. On tractors with a T/A and no live pto power to pto is much like live except instead of the hollow shaft and gear from pressure plate that turns whenever engine runs there's a solid shaft with gear made on it to turn lower pto gear. The solid shaft is powered from clutch plate and shaft is also connected to T/A input shaft. Reason they powered non live pto that way with a T/A is because if powered through transmission like no T/A tractors the pto would slow down with T/A in low. With live pto and no T/A power to transmission is same as no T/A and no live pto. Hope this is understandable.

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JayWalt

02-17-2007 21:31:15




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to D Slater, 02-17-2007 20:21:34  
i basically understood what the difference was before. Im saying I have no idea what mine has, heh...
Case-ih 's parts site is kinda nice, but its lacking serverely when it comes to how things go together. like is there a gasket between the hydraulic pump and the font plate on the engine, u look on the pump section, no gasket, u look on the engine section, no gasket. same with the pto, it just shows the pto itself, not how its driven... hehe
Iguess thats where a service manual comes in handy, or does it not have a proper exploded view either? I seen a service man at TSC, and like cars (particularly haynes), they are grouped together and doesnt show much of anything, pretty much worthless, but it was only 30$, so what can one expect..
I think this is my last post in this thread, as I've hijacked it enough... sorry =)

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JayWalt

02-17-2007 21:31:14




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to D Slater, 02-17-2007 20:21:34  
i basically understood what the difference was before. Im saying I have no idea what mine has, heh...
Case-ih 's parts site is kinda nice, but its lacking serverely when it comes to how things go together. like is there a gasket between the hydraulic pump and the font plate on the engine, u look on the pump section, no gasket, u look on the engine section, no gasket. same with the pto, it just shows the pto itself, not how its driven... hehe
Iguess thats where a service manual comes in handy, or does it not have a proper exploded view either? I seen a service man at TSC, and like cars (particularly haynes), they are grouped together and doesnt show much of anything, pretty much worthless, but it was only 30$, so what can one expect..
I think this is my last post in this thread, as I've hijacked it enough... sorry =)

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georgeky

02-17-2007 21:36:33




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to JayWalt, 02-17-2007 21:31:14  
Jay look at the transmission section it shows both shafts.



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georgeky

02-17-2007 19:02:38




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to JayWalt, 02-17-2007 18:54:47  
It does not matter whether it has TA or not. I have a 350 row crop with no TA, but it does have IPTO. I also have a 450 diesel that has TA and transmission driven PTO.



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jk

02-17-2007 17:31:34




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
the tractors with no TA had a non-continous PTO, means that its not "live" and will stop with the transmission when the clutch is pushed in.



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Wardner

02-17-2007 18:48:21




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to jk, 02-17-2007 17:31:34  
That's not true.


"P" suffix on serial # means IPTO without TA


"S" means TA with provision for IPTO


"R" means IPTO with provision for transmission driven PTO



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Fromjb2

02-17-2007 17:05:07




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
Hi Tom, my Dad purchased a 300U in late 1957 or early 1958 and it had a C175 same as 350. So somewhere at end of 300U production and beginning of 350 production, IH must have started installing C175s instead of C169s. JimB



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Wardner

02-17-2007 16:48:19




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
Tom, you just can't plug an IPTO into any ole tractor even if similar tractors have the IPTO.

The IPTO gets its power from the splines of the engine clutch pressure plate; not the clutch disc. That power flows though a sleeve and gear which mesh with another shaft and gear below it. That shaft runs through the hollow center of the transmission countershaft. If you have all that stuff, you can think about installing the IPTO.

Right now all you can do is install what is called a transmission type PTO. It stops when the clutch is disengaged. It couples to a solid countershaft. You can retrofit all the IPTO parts if you wish, but I think you would be better off trading tractors. It all depends on what you have for equipment, time, and money for the parts.

As for Jay, don't knock it until you have tried it.

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Wardner

02-17-2007 17:00:51




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to Wardner, 02-17-2007 16:48:19  
BTW, all that I just said is illustrated clearly in the parts book. You can start by looking at the two different pressure plates.



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tom nj

02-17-2007 17:18:06




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to Wardner, 02-17-2007 17:00:51  
Wardner, Thanks for info but I have two diagrams for clutch plates in my parts book TC57 on pages 102 and 104 the standard clutch and a 101/2" rockford and the pressure plates are identicle and even have the same part nos. Are you in a different manual? Tom



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Wardner

02-17-2007 18:41:31




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 17:18:06  
I don't own a utility nor do I have the books. Perhaps utilities from that era weren't offered with IPTO. I dunno.

I am looking at my Farmall 400 book. It is similar to your book as it shows Rockford and IH. They both use the same picture on separate pages. They both have the spline on the "PLATE, Back" item #8. I stand corrected and it's because I am used to looking at my M-SMTA book where the M backing plate has no splines.

You need to go to the "power take-off drive" page to see the different hardware for old style PTO and IPTO. Item #4 (SHAFT, AND GEAR) plugs into the backing plate and it is where the IPTO begins. I doubt if that part is installed on your tractor

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JayWalt

02-17-2007 16:19:27




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
tom, sorry I cant help you, but I'm in the same boat, a 300u with no pto, and no TA (I dont want a TA either). I thought about getting a pto for mine as well. LEt us know if you figure out why the engine is different? maybe somebody put a different hood on it and its not a 300u at all. Maybe its a 350? I dont know if those parts are the same, I'd imagine they are, since theres alot of simalarities between the 300u and 350u. Let us know what you figure out.

I fear exactly what you have, buying a pto and having it not fit =(.

Just out of curiousty, if you dont mind saying, what did you pay for it? Seems funny sometimes u can buy a whole "junk" tractor for 300$ and when u go to buy one part off of a tractor it costs just as much as you could get a whole junk tractor for. I guess thats why people part them out.

I dont have an immediate need for a pto, nor do I see one in the future, but If I could get my hands on one cheap, I'd put it in just to increase resell value.

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georgeky

02-17-2007 16:17:13




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 Re: HELP !! 300 UTILITY in reply to tom nj, 02-17-2007 15:52:02  
Tom the lower shafts in tractor are different for non continous pto. look at tractor serial no it should a letter designation that will tell you which shaft is in your tractor.There should be letter P for IPTO



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