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I've just about had it with leaks

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Carden

12-17-2007 10:14:01




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Please help me identify this and guide me toward a solution. I have had it up to my dipstick with leaks.




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Andy Martin

12-18-2007 04:44:33




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Check to make sure you don't have the transmission overfilled.

the level plug is just out of sight left in the picture and is lower than the bullpinion. too much oil will leak out. Too much oil is not better. If you're using Hy-Tran instead of cheap 90w, go back to gear grease, it doesn't leak as bad.



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CenTexFarmall

12-17-2007 20:13:05




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
I could take some pictures of 30 million dollar airplanes that leak. And the stuff they leak is _rather_ expensive. That might make you feel better.
All just part of the fun of anything man-made.
My M's have similar leaks. I swear the liftall on my main M leaks more that I put in it!
The one I have that doesn't leak doesn't have any oil in the rear.



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Brownie450

12-17-2007 19:10:32




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
As Nebraska says--don't worry about a small leak. The neighbor down the road always said"If it doesn't leak more than 5 gallons a day, it doesn't need fixed". The brake lining being oil soaked---- if it is fairly thick yet, try heating the lining material carefully with a propane torch & see if most of the oil will run off. I've been successful using this fix on lots of brake linings/discs.



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Goose

12-17-2007 18:56:47




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
I used to work with a fellow who had been a service advisor for a Jaguar dealer. He'd visited the Jaguar factory in England once, and said even Jaguar people joked that if a Jaguar isn't leaking somewhere it's out of fluids.

The same applies to about every tractor I've owned.



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D Slater

12-17-2007 16:25:17




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Probably find the bull pinion bearing starting to go bad also in more than half the old M tractors with that problem.



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georgeky

12-17-2007 15:39:51




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Like others have said, you are worrying to much. Most these will leak a little, but it won't slow them down at all. Just fix the problems a little at a time, and use it in the mean time. I farm fairly heavy with 6 or 7 of these old tractors an almost all of them leak some somewhere. Some in the same places you speak of. Oh it is one of if not the finest piece of dependable machinery ever built. Don't hurt them to work the snot out of them either. Just check oil levels often.

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Glenn F.

12-17-2007 15:11:51




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
As many others have said, any machine which earns it's keep WILL leak oil. Your expectations are unreasonable.

Glenn F.



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Hugh MacKay

12-18-2007 02:48:24




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Glenn F., 12-17-2007 15:11:51  
Glenn: I agree with the second part of your statment, his expectations are unreasonable.

Not sure I agree with the part about any machine that earns it's keep will leak. My experience has been if hours were clocked at a fast rate from new, the machine would go a long time before it developed leaks. I'm dealing right now with a very old Woods mower, bearing are tight and smooth, yet the top seals are gone. It looks to me as though rust and corosion on shafts, at the point were seals make contact, have caused the leak. One can readily see this mower has never done much work.

I had a new Farmall 560D, clocked up 11,000 hours in 17 years. My 656D was much the same except 10,000 hours in 12 years and 1066 and 10,000 hours in 8 years. The only leaks I ever witnessed in all those hours of service were hydraulic quick couplers. I currently have a Super A, probably 2,500 hours lifetime and a 140 with less than 1,000 hours. Both the SA and 140 have leaked for years.

Here are my thoughts; time is a major factor, machine gets used enough to remove paint from around seals, then too many parked hours cause rusting where those seals do their thing. That is one source of leaks, much greater than many believe. Hours of work by a machine since new definitely is a factor, when it comes to transmission and rear end leaks. Some of those old Farmalls are well worn by now, it takes more than seals for a fix.

By far the biggest source of hydraulic leaks aside from quick couplers, have been caused by inept operators, having the attitude, "Oh I'm not using the hydraulics today, it doesn't matter if it's low in oil." That my friend is the biggest source of hydraulic leaks.

When it comes to the engine, the biggest source of leaks have been over filling the crank case. That has popped more crank seals than all the work tractors have ever done.

My experience, 20 working tractors lifetime and about 15 employees. If I could figure out how to make the average employee understand, "keep the hydraulic reservoir on the full mark and the crank case somewhere between add and full" I'd consider myself a genius.

Even some technicians are very poor, I take my Buick to a service center for oil changes. Once several years ago it came home crank case 3 quarts over full. I drove it right back, made him drain the excess and I never went back to that establishment for anything. I guess he was looking down the road to crank seal replacements.

In summary my experience, human error has been the biggest cause of machine leaks.

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Carden

12-17-2007 14:13:29




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Thank to all who posted back to this thread. I hadn"t intended on making it this lengthy but thanks for tolerating my frustration. I"m sure many have gone through the same thing. I went back out, when I could feel my fingers, and looked it over again. Doing that and your positive feedback have encouraged me not to give up. Believe it or not, my wife caught wind of my thoughts on getting rid of it and said "Don"t do it, you"ll regret it!" That"s why I"ve kept HER this long. I"m going to use the tips many of you gave to work on the brakes. That side isn"t stopping very well, obviously. The other can wait until spring. Thanks again...

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riverbend

12-17-2007 12:43:03




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
I just fixed a 'leak' that was a little worse than that. Best case, it costs you $18 for a new seal. Worst case, figure on something closer to $500. I was in for about $525 if I count the relined brake band.

If it is just the seal, it will take you about an hour to fix it. It is easy. Remove the bolts that hold that tin cover to the tractor. Disconnect the linkage and the spring. Pull off the cover abd the brake band. Take the bolt out of the end of the brake drum. Pull the drum out.

You will see the grease seal and the end of the pinion shaft. Grab the end of the pinion shaft and try to move it up and down, side to side. If it does not move, pry the old seal out and drive in a new one. If you were satisfied with the brake on that side, wash the grease off the band and put it all back together.

If the pinion shaft moves, there is a bad bearing in there and the repair involves moving heavy parts. It is not difficult either, just more expensive and heavier.

Greg

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MN Rick

12-17-2007 12:42:46




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
I'd venture a guess that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the H's and M's still in existence have the very leaks you are fretting over. It appears you bought this tractor to use and if thats the case, unless you have a puddle under it everytime you move it, you are commiting mental energy where it isnt really needed. The brake pinion is fix in a couple hours even if you arent mechanical and you have already suggested you arent as worried about the onther leak as you were originally. As referenced before, even with a 7K Super H, there is a fair chance this may occur. After milloins of revolutions, being subjected to dirt, grease and weather, things simply dont fit as tight as they once did. You are asking more of this 60 year old tractor than any die hard Harley guy would ask of a 30 year old machine. Keep the faith. If the tractor does the work you intended for it to do with some reliability, it has accomplished what it was intended for.

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Nat 2

12-17-2007 11:48:34




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Yugrotcart, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
That's as good an excuse as any to keep it... Nobody's going to pay $3000 for an M, even with the hitch. You might be able to sell it for $2200 if you throw in the hitch, or about $1500 without the hitch.

Unless the oil is just gushing on the ground by the quart, I wouldn't worry about either problem until spring. Too blasted cold to do even minor surgery outside. Of course, if you've got a heated shop, then wheel it in and go at it. Neither problem is terribly mechanical to repair.

Leaks are part of the price of ownership. If you want an old tractor, you have to deal with old tractor issues.

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Wardner

12-17-2007 11:41:40




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Solution?

After reading this thread, I think you need to trade the tractor in on a 2008 4x4 PU w/plow package, plow, and an extended warrantee.

It doesn't seem like you have the temperment for old iron or the tolerance for oil where it shouldn't be.

Your other option is to take it back to the guy who did the engine and pay him to fix the leaks. If the front leak is engine oil, don't pay for that repair.

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Hugh MacKay

12-17-2007 11:54:16




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Wardner, 12-17-2007 11:41:40  
Wardner: Remember that $7,000. Super H from yesterday's discussion. Just what I said, "Some of these guys figure they can buy that $7,000. tractor for $3,000."



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rrlund

12-17-2007 11:36:16




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
I believe I'd just nickname it Edsel. Every Day Something Else Leaks.



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Brian in MA

12-17-2007 11:12:16




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Where are you located and how much do you want for the M? I have fixed both the same leaks on my H over the years. All it takes is time and money. I'm sure that once those are fixed others will turn up to ensure you are never bored.



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Carden

12-17-2007 11:36:13




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Brian in MA, 12-17-2007 11:12:16  
Brian - First I just want to make sure I am not out-of-bounds here, with YTMAG forum rules. Is it OK to even talk sales here in the forum? Everyone here has been incredible with help and without this forum I would not have gotten this far. I would not want to break any rules. Second I am in Upstate NY, 1 hour west of Albany. If I decide to sell it, I would like to get what I have into it. (Wouldn't we all?) I paid $2200 for it and spent $800 on a dual ram Saginaw hitch (not including freight) this doesn't include the axle seal we repaired and the new gear oil. I ran the specs, on the engine rebuild, by some folks here awhile back. Too long to list again, do a search under my name if you'd like to. Giving up on things is not my style but as I've said before I am no mechanic. I just may have gotten in over my head here. Too bad cause the thing purrs like a kitten and has incredible compression.

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Brian in MA

12-17-2007 12:24:01




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 11:36:13  
You have arguably one of the best tractors ever built. I encourage you to accept that it will leak and at times there will be problems with it. I would argue that even the $7,000 Super H could develop either of these leaks tomorrow. I have seen some very new iron with some very expensive problems, far worse than the rear end leaks. To replace the function of the M with a new tractor will run you $30k, so anything short of that is a win? Even the 2008 Ford truck with plow mentioned above is not a sure thing. Look on the bright side, neither of these leaks require a tractor split to fix. I agree with another poster, these problems can wait until spring. The brake seal leaked on my H for at least 15 years that I owned it before I fixed it, and probably 10 before that. Good luck and keep your sense of humor.

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Mike Farmer

12-17-2007 10:45:14




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
1st pic is the set screw used to take up initial slack when adjusting brakes on the bottom of the brake drum and what you are showing is the bottom of the drum. If you have an oil leak there then you probably have an oil seal leaking on the outer end of the diferential shaft behind the brake drum. I cant really see the angle on the second one but I'm sure someone else will advise on that MTF



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Wayne from MN

12-17-2007 10:43:24




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
First picture is of a leaky brake pinion seal; second picture is of a Lift-All drive seal on your M.
Some dis-assembly required for both; brake seal is hardest and will require new brake lining.



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Mike CA

12-17-2007 10:36:40




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
Looks like an H to me. Not sure. If that is an H, then it looks like your brake axle seal is leaking. Neblinc is going through the repairs for that as we speak. You can use the Search feature to see his experiences with that.
I can't tell what or where the other area is, so maybe it's not an H?



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Carden

12-17-2007 10:44:30




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Mike CA, 12-17-2007 10:36:40  
I"m sorry... It"s an M. The brake leak appears to be coming from a hole next to the brake adjustment screw.
The second picture is on the very bottom of the tractor, I believe where the drive shaft goes into the gearbox. Forgive my ignorance. A mechanic I am not.



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Carden

12-17-2007 10:26:47




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:14:01  
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Oh...and here's another one!



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dej(jed)

12-17-2007 10:43:39




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:26:47  
That one is probably your rear main engine seal leaking. If you don't have a love affair with it I would get rid of it. It has been used hard.



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glennster

12-17-2007 10:43:19




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:26:47  
top one is a leaky seal on the brake drum. you need to pull the cover and the drum and then pop the seal out. the lower one looks like the inspection cover under the clutch. could be the belly pump seals are leaking, or the trans input shaft or the belly pump drive shaft. none are hard to change, takes a little time, and a handful of grease.



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Nebraska Cowman

12-17-2007 10:41:53




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:26:47  
How bad is it leaking? oil is cheap. Put a pan under it if you don't want spots on the ground. Now the brake seal you might need to fix for the brakes to work realy well. That's up to you. Some brakes run in oil all the time.



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Carden

12-17-2007 10:55:47




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-17-2007 10:41:53  
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The brake seal is leaking at a slow but steady rate. The other is very minor. I pushed it hard today cleaning up from the storm we just had. That's when I noticed the brake seal. I am about 2 drops away from selling this thing WITH the new hitch. I bought it, if some recall, because of the exceptional engine rebuild job. Guess we all start to leak when we get older.

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glennster

12-17-2007 12:38:51




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:55:47  
at this point, i would wait till spring to change the seals. it wont hurt anything right now, just annoying. to do the brake seals, you need to remove the pedals to get the covers off. then pull the drums, pop the seals and reassemble. trans seals or belly pump seals arent that bad to do either.



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MN Scott

12-17-2007 12:11:59




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 Re: I've just about had it with leaks in reply to Carden, 12-17-2007 10:55:47  
One point I have on oil leaks. Oil likes to leak by its nature weather its a 60 year old tractor or a two year old one. If you go buy a brand new tractor there's a good chance it to will have leaks in a few years, BTDT. Thing is with a new tractor its often a lot more work and spendy to repair leaks. On your M's transmission there are about 8 seals that are fairlly simple to replace. Just post on the forum and I'am sure there will be several of us to walk you thru replacing them. Keep in mind its near 60 years old and we all will leak a little when we are over 60 years old, LOL!

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