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460 engine overhaul question

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Rifler

03-31-2008 19:21:17




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I am rebuilding a motor for a 460 IH and finally have it all back together. I took a 291, bored it out for sleeves for a 301, new pistons/rings and the head was rebuilt.

I have spark and fuel at least to the carb and thru, but I don't think it's getting drawn in as the plugs have been dry everytime I've check them.

I have checked the compression and it is at 40 psi across all six cylinders. I am pretty sure I put the rings on correct and the sleeves were bored to the pistons with the proper clearance.

My question is there something I missed on or do I start by taking the pistons back out to double check the rings were installed correctly? Or, is there another alternative? THanks for reading.

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ejr-IA

04-01-2008 10:10:13




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
What crank shaft are you useing ? 3 11/16 or 4 25/64 stroke.



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GooseCreek Farms

04-03-2008 03:53:43




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to ejr-IA, 04-01-2008 10:10:13  
Overhauled our 460 about 4 years ago and could not get it started. Finally discovered that I did not have a good seal at the manifold. Was sucking air instead of gas.



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Allan In NE

04-01-2008 05:56:39




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
If you don't have compression, you won't have "suck".

Somethin's bad wrong. Wrong pistons? Are you sure you got that cam timed right?

Allan



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gene bender

04-01-2008 02:57:02




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
The 40psi should tell you something.You must have a bad guage. 40psi wont make anything run very good much less start. Try another guage. How is the valve clearence.



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ScottyHOMEy

03-31-2008 20:30:45




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
Try doin' a wet compression test on a cylinder or two at first. Just squirt some oil into a cylinder (just enough to run off the top of the piston and get down to the rings) and recheck the compression. If ti comes up significantly, go ahead and check them all just so you'll know where you stand.

If that doesn't reveal anything, you're going to need to go back through the whole job. Cam timing, valves (fit and adjustment), head gasket . . . and figure out where you're leakin'.

Bummer.

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the tractor vet

03-31-2008 19:49:28




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
Well if ya only have 40 psi then son i hate to tell ya this BUT IT JUST AIN'T AH GOING TO RUN. You should be in the neighborhood of 165 -180 SOOOOOoo it is back to the drawing board .



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ihc49er#2

03-31-2008 19:46:25




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
it will never start with only 40 psi compression! or is that a typing error?



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El Toro

03-31-2008 19:34:52




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 19:21:17  
Have you checked the valve clearance? Did you check the ring gap on the new rings in the new sleeves before installing them on the pistons?
Squirt engine oil in those cylinders and see if that helps. Hal



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Rifler

03-31-2008 20:04:22




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to El Toro, 03-31-2008 19:34:52  
Valve clearance was checked and set at 0.025" and the ring clearance was also checked before the pistons were installed. I believe the piston clearance they bored the sleeves to was 0.004".

I understand the motor (any motor) won't run on 40 psi, but I thought that might help in giving a direction to look at because I am a little baffled with the situation.



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El Toro

04-01-2008 04:08:49




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 20:04:22  
You need to bring No1 piston to TDC on the compression stroke then look at your valves on No1 piston to see if they're both closed. This will determine if the valve timing is ok. Your timing marks should be aligned too. Hal
PS: Your piston rings should've had instructions
for installing the rings in the right direction.
My manual doesn't cover your engine, but it says
rings that're stamped with the word "top" should face up. Rings having a groove in the outer face should be installed with the groove down. Rings with an inside groove should face up.

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the tractor vet

03-31-2008 20:12:33




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 03-31-2008 20:04:22  
Well since i did not do the job all i can tell ya is start from square one and go from there Ya may have the cam out of time ya may find that the valve job is bad ya may find that the head gskt is wrong . ANd in all my years of engine building i have never heard of boring the sleeves of a 291 to go to 301 as they would have to be tisue paper thin . Don't have a clue on what piston ya are using or just how far up they come . We don't have any real idea on just what your tryen to do . IF you are tryen to make a pullen motor there are other ways and 301 just ain't ah going to be enough.

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Rifler

04-01-2008 08:29:37




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to the tractor vet, 03-31-2008 20:12:33  
Regarding the timing marks, I aligned the cam gear with the crank gear per the marks on the gears (punch marks). The punch marks didn't align on center, in other words the cam gear marks would end up either to the right or left of the crank gear mark and the I&T picture and description wasn't clear. I set them marks on the cam gear to the left of the crank marks (as you are standing in front of the motor) Could that be part of my issue?

At TDC both valves are closed and the head was check when rebuilt, but I need to verify when the intake is closing in relationship to when the crank is coming up on TDC, I only verified the valved clearance at TDC and verified both valves were closed. It almost has to be timing as the issue is common to all 6 clinders or installed the rings bass ackwards.

Regarding the boring of a 291 to a 301, long story short, I had two options once the motor was tore down and taken to the machine shop for cleaning (I bought it as a non running tractor). 1) Due to a previous rebuild rebuild, I was advised by the machine shop to junk the block (they had modifed for a different sleeve configuration and 291 sleeves would not work) or 2) machine out and resleeve (custom sleeves) for a 301, with proper sleeve thinkness. At the time it added up le$$ to do the latter. Hind site is always 20/20..... .....buying a running 221/263 may of been a better option. Thanks again.

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IntHar

04-01-2008 10:41:19




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 04-01-2008 08:29:37  
It sounds as though you may have the timing marks off. While you check that, another thing you should do is check that you have the right crankshaft installed. Doesn't appear that you have enough stroke. It has happened on 560's, where a 460 crank was installed. You could start them by pulling, but couldn't pull a setting hen off the nest. Two ways to check that. One-Thru spark plug opening, use a piece of 1/8 brazing rod and have some one turn the engine slowly while you keep pressure on the rod, and follow the piston to the bottom. Mark rod at opening of plug hole, then proceed to the top of the stroke and mark again. That will give you the approximate stroke. Bet that's part of the problem. The other way would be if you pulled the head, simply measure travel of piston thru the top of bore. Good luck Rifler.
IntHar

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El Toro

04-01-2008 10:15:45




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 04-01-2008 08:29:37  
third party image

Did your camgear have a single punch mark and double punch marks? The single punch mark on the camgear should be aligned with the single punch mark on the crankshaft gear.

The double punch mark on the camgear should be aligned with single punch mark on the governor gear. Hal

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Rifler

04-01-2008 11:57:15




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to El Toro, 04-01-2008 10:15:45  
I need to check the crank as it was was swapped out from the original engine due to too much wear and not enuf to grind to make it good again. The crank guy had a good one ready to go at the time. I never verified it was for a 291 motor, just took his word as it was tagged as one.

The cam gear had two punch marks, but I am not sure I follow you on the cam gear to governor gear alignment. The picture in the manual doesn't look like a C-291 motor.

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El Toro

04-01-2008 13:44:12




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to Rifler, 04-01-2008 11:57:15  
Can you post a picture of the camgear and crankshaft gear in your tractor? Hal



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Rifler

04-01-2008 14:49:34




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 Re: 460 engine overhaul question in reply to El Toro, 04-01-2008 13:44:12  
Yes, I am planning on doing just that tonight. Thanks.



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