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504 loses power after an hour

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David V

04-22-2008 04:24:33




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Hello gents, I've got a problem that I thought I had solved this winter but yesterday realized I hadn't:

Tractor is 1960 504 Gas, C-153 engine, TA
Serial No. 4705 S-Y-CC-FF

Problem is this: Starts and runs great and after about an hour begins to lose power. If I'm running around in 4th gear, pretty soon I'm in 3rd and not long after I've got to limp along in 1st. At times it's almost like I'm dropping cylinders, like I'm firing on all four and then three, and if I idle it down in a lower gear it finds all four again, that's how it sound anyway.

Thing I've tried: I thought this was a moisture issue during the winter and it seemed solved by swapping out a clean dry distributor cap, but that wouldn't do it yesterday. I also switched the coil in case that was on it's way out. Thanks for any input.

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chadd

04-22-2008 14:42:51




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
A couple things: check operation of ignition circuit. If there is no power to the points or not enough, the fuel shutoff solenoid won't open and you won't get any fuel. If that is good, check the solenoid itself. When you remove it and turn the key, the pintle should pull in with the base grounded to the motor. If not, it is dead. Make sure you get the right replacement (there were at least 3 carbs available with that motor). Next make sure that the carb and fuel line are unrestricted. What type of a fuel filter do you have? We installed an inline filter in an M and it would run fine for 30 min to an hour depending on load and then would begin to run hot and lose lots of power. Turns out the filter was too restrictive for the gravity feed fuel system. Getting a sediment bowl and screen solved that problem. Also, our combine has the C-153 engine in it and it also has oversized carb jets in it. It really helped with the power output of that little engine, however, it does tend to load up a little when not working hard.

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David V

04-22-2008 08:05:33




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
Update:

Today it won't start at all, generally it had been running fine after an hour or two break. There's good fuel flow at the carb and the carb is clean. Now that it won't start at all it seems more electrical, but other than the coil I can't think of what would explain it. The points only have about 150 hours on them, but the plugs are pretty old.

Hugh: This has been a great tractor for me, I get every bit of the 45hp out of it, I've got a 5-shank chisel plow I pull with it and I can pull it 10 inches deep without a problem, just not today!

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riverbend

04-22-2008 15:15:25




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 08:05:33  
Hey David,

It won't run at all ? Good News!

To check for power at the points, hook up your voltmeter to the distributor body and the movable side of the points. Turn on the ignition and open the points. Be careful not to ground the moving part with your screwdriver. You should have 11 to 12 Volts.

If you have power there, move the lead from the points to either of the coil terminals. With the points still open you should have voltage there too. If so, check to see that the fuel shut off solenoid moves. There is a coil in there that could be heating up and going bad ( or has gone bad now). If that moves, shut off the ignition, and short the wire from the condensor to the distributor body. You should see a little spark. When you are sure that the little capacitor is discharged, set your meter to Ohms and measure between the wire and the condensor body. It should be infinite (open circuit). If not the condensor is bad. The ignition coil should measure between 3 and 6 ohms across the terminals (disconnect both wires first).

You should have bought a decent M if you needed more power than an H. Live power and hydraulics are overrated. Otherwise, bring it over and I will get it back to you in July.

Greg

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El Toro

04-22-2008 09:31:02




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 08:05:33  
You need to see if there's fire to the plugs. Pull one of the plug wires and hold it away from the plug while you have someone crank over the engine with the ignition switch in the on position. If there's no fire you need to check for battery voltage at the coil. With the points open you should have voltage on both terminals. Use a volt meter or a test lite that you know works to check for voltage. I would replace the condenser to eleminate it. If there's good hot spark from your plug wire I think you have a fuel problem. Have someone to crank over the engine with the ignition switch on, then you hold hand over the throat of the carburetor while the engine is being cranked and see if it will start.
It should have good suction on your hand. If there isn't good suction check your intake manifold to see if it needs to tighten or the carburetor. Hal PS: If there's no battery voltage at the coil you need to check the ignition switch for voltage
it may be defective or the feed wire to the switch
is broken. There're usually fed battery voltage from the starter solenoid that stays hot all the time.

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Hugh MacKay

04-22-2008 09:06:46




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 08:05:33  
David: My dealer sold two of those new, and said no more, it's either diesel or no 504. I bought mine with a farm, (one of the two) it was 5 years old, 1,500 hours and a new engine rebuild only because the farmer who traded a 300 on it was never satisfied with the 504. When he sold it to me it was at the dealer having that rebuild. When it came home he wanted to run it, just to see if they improved it. After 50 hours on a 9' haybine, he advised me not to keep it any longer than necessary. After the 50 hours it was acting just like yours, and he said it had done that ever since new. If you have time for a tune up per month, fine, I don't. If you look at the engine specs, no way it can match a 300. Less cubic inches and more RPM's have never proved themselves, and every company tried it. All you've got is a reamed out Super A engine. I've heard countless stories about 504 gassers most of them no better. The diesels truly had 45 hp. I've been in this game too long to believe anyone is getting 45 hp from a 504 gasser. 16 new or near new Farmalls came to our farm and the only disappointment was the 504.

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TomH in PA

04-22-2008 08:52:38




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 08:05:33  
150 hours seems like it might be getting close to time for new points. At least file them. I converted mine to electronic ignition with a new coil. It did make a difference.

Also follow the carburetor adjustment instructions carefully to get the idle right.



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Bob M

04-22-2008 08:00:24




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
David - In addition to the advice offered previously here’s a couple more things to check:

1 – Vapor lock. As the tractor heats up from working problem may be gas boiling in the tank and fuel line. (I have a gas Oliver 1600 and a 1650 - both sometimes have this problem when worked hard in hot weather.)

Solutions: Make sure the radiator front is clear to maximize air flow over the engine and gas tank. If the fuel line runs close to the exhaust manifold reroute it farther away, or wrap it in insulation. If your tractor removable hood side pieces around the gas tank take ‘em off. Finally if there’s missing heat shields over the exhaust manifold, or between the fuel tank and top of the engine, replace them!

(Note – you can frequently tell if vapor locking happening by looking in the gas tank filler. If you see the gas is “boiling” – even lightly – it’s too hot!)

2 – Overheating coil (wrong coil installed). If the coil becomes too hot to touch after running 10 – 15 minutes you’ve got a 6 volt coil being fed 12 volts. Either replace it with an internally ballasted coil, or add an ignition ballast resistor in series with the primary to the coil.

3 – Failing condenser (long shot). Could be the condenser goes away as it warms up. For the couple bucks a new condenser costs it won’t hurt to simply replace it.

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Randy in NE

04-22-2008 07:32:22




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
It could be the coil getting hot and breaking down. If you let it sit about a minute or two does it have full power or is the motor still struggling. Low fuel flow will let the carb catch up after sitting a couple of minutes as the gas trickles in. A hot coil is most likely going to show the same symptons until it cools off, like after and hour or so.



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Hugh MacKay

04-22-2008 06:29:34




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
David: I thought 504 gassers always worked that way, at least mine did when it was less than 5 years old at 1,500 hours. Supposed to be 45 hp, but a good working 35 hp 300 will out do them any day.



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onefarmer

04-22-2008 05:43:27




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
Might be starving for fuel like Hal said. Since it does it after about an hour, I'd suspect a plugged tank vent. Run it wait for it to act up and remove the fuel cap. If it helps the vent is plugged.



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El Toro

04-22-2008 04:38:42




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 Re: 504 loses power after an hour in reply to David V, 04-22-2008 04:24:33  
Are you sure you're getting a full flow of gas to the carburetor? Sounds like the engine is starving for fuel. Pull the gas line at the carb
and see if there's a good flow not a trickle. Hold a clean container beneath the gas line to catch the gas. If there's good flow here remove the tube fitting in the carb and check for a screen behind that fitting that may be plugged with rust or dirt. If there's no blockage here you probably need to check the carburetor. If that carburetor has a main adjusting screw at the bottom of the carb I would open it more. Hal
PS: If it has this I would try this first.

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