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What do they Teach in our Schools..??

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Ron

02-18-2004 09:48:15

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They sure don't teach "Common Sense", OR "Animal Husbandry"..

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Puller504

02-20-2004 05:05:25

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Half of the learning process is the students, not the teachers! My 2 kids attend the same high school. The youngest is an A-B student. The oldest has been held back 2 years because he doesn't apply himself or think he needs to LEARN! If he were to turn his work in, he'd be on the Honor Role. Study habits in school become work habits in life! Don

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KenF

02-19-2004 17:03:35

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Well the question was pretty simple!!!

But what are you teaching your kids at home??

You tell them they are wonderfull, they can achieve anything they want. They are intelligent, gifted even...etc.

Surprise, surprise... THEY BELIEVE YOU!!

I love that Mark Twain quote about how ignorant his farther was when MT was 14.

Now your kids get to be 35, 40, 45. They still believe you! Look they are running the Universe - Enron, Worldcom (many, many lesser known companies actually). They now know so much that you're just an ignorant old fart again!!

Not only did you forget to teach them common sense, you forgot to teach them humility, respect for elders and common decency.

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Dave in Mo...the General

02-19-2004 09:27:42

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Like General Omar Bradley once said, the military (or in this case school systems) are only going to reflect our general society..... .....let's not blame the students or teachers..... .

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john d - Gotta say this..

02-19-2004 06:22:36

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

I generally try to stay out of discussions like this, but since this one's been pretty civil so far, I'll participate.
I've been a public school teacher for 37 years. I've loved it. The days have been long, the pay low, and the rewards are many. Summers have been enjoyed, but have been filled with work to make ends meet.
Public schools have lots of problems in many places across this country. Public education has become a political football. Standards-based assessments are put in place, but funding is often not there to remediate those who need the help. Class sizes vary greatly, and DO affect the teacher's ability to connect with all students, but an even greater problem is the wide range of kids' needs within a single class. In some districts, many kids get their one decent meal a day in the school cafeteria. It's hard to get the attention of a kid at 8:00 in the morning when he hasn't eaten much since yesterday noon.
Lots of kids (more than when most of us were in school) don't have the guidance and supervision from two parents at home. Most have never had the structure of daily chores like we farm kids had, hated, and benefitted from, decades ago.
It takes very little these days for a teacher to suddenly find himself/herself in a lawsuit. Many teachers join teachers' unions simply for the limited protection they provide in these circumtances. If the teacher is sued for something, the chances of having a sprited defense by the school system is often minimal.
I'm fortunate to be teaching in a system where parent support is pretty good, kids are well fed, and test scores are high. This "No Child Left Behind" debate needs more discussion, but it certainly doesn't amount to lowering standards to guarantee success. It generally amounts to doing more with less. Our system typically leads our state in test scores for schools our size. The pressure to do more is still here. We're adding a foreign language REQUIREMENT for all 6th, 7th, 8th graders starting next year, and putting in one more period of English per day. This results in fewer chances to take electives, including my Tech Ed classes. Wise choice? Maybe, maybe not; but it's reality, so we deal with it.
Part of the problem with public schools is that EVERYONE who ever went to school is an instant expert. Unfortunately, many of the experts haven't been to a school for anything other than an athletic event since they left the place. Even more unfortunate is the propensity of these people to get elected to state legislatures and Congress!
If you don't do anything to support your local schools except pay taxes, find a way to get involved in some additional manner. Simply call your school and ask if you can visit sometime. See for yourself what is going on, and find out what the daily problems are. Schools are for more than the kids who attend and the people who work there. If you generally approve of the way your local schools are functioning, tell the folks in charge, and then find out what needs to be done to make them even better. If your local schools are a mess, make some reasonable effort to find out WHY, and push for change. Don't fall back on the excuse that you don't have time....when we're all closer to being out of time, those kids in the schools are the ones that will be paying the taxes, building the roads, growing our food, and taking care of us.

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Mark

02-20-2004 13:02:05

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to john d - Gotta say this.., 02-19-2004 06:22:36

John,

You speak the truth.

When my daughter was in high school she was in UIL. I was going to comment on how few parents attended the Inter Scholastic awards for their children's educational excellence but I forgot what U stands for and what she got for what....then I was going to compare that attendance to the Friday evenings football game attendance and make a point of what matters (seems to matter) to the majority of parents that return to the campus at least around these parts.

But It's been so long since I was on campus I blew the whole thing..... course I have an excuse now....my children are parents and the daughter and hubby are teachers. While I'm at it, the son-in-law gave up a hot shot electronics sales engineering job (heavy into 6 figure salary) to go back to high school and teach math and science. Said he wanted some ..... .job satisfaction...His salary as a teacher is $35,000 with a MSEE and teaching certificate...What matters?

Mark

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Steve from TN

02-19-2004 19:34:46

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to john d - Gotta say this.., 02-19-2004 06:22:36

John, you can teach my grandchildren anytime.

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buck

02-18-2004 20:30:38

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Guess Common sence is that ellusive knowledge that everyone knows they have but no one else has. Could it be a simple minded approach that gets results and works? Don't really think one can teach this to another. Now if we expect our teachers to work under the threat of law suits, while only expecting them to give our children a 6th or 8th grade education in order to graduate high school, why do we expect them to put forth much effort. I think both my chldren got an excellent High school and College education. In fact my daughter was a math minor and the course outline called for her to repeat 2 identical classes she had in highschool.

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PAMike

02-18-2004 19:01:18

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Another thing to keep in mind is kids(and Adults) only learn up to the amount they want to learn. If someone has the desire to learn they can aquire much more knowledge than someone who doesnt. Even if they sit side by side in the same classroom, and are exposed to the same amount of teaching. My grandfather has an 8th grade education, but on some techinical levels he blows me away, and I have a bachlors degree in Engineering...

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Jared in VT

02-18-2004 17:13:37

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Just like a platoon sergeant in the armed forces; with all the responsibilites and liabilities and demands that are placed on our teachers nationwide, we should be paying them 100 grand a year. Plenty of folks with fat jobs in the private sector prodice less and gain more than our teachers sweating it out daily in the classroom. I'll wager my SMTA that the cynical posters here would not last one productive day in the class room. Easy to complain, hard to perform. I volunteer in a local school to teach outdoor skills and land navigation to students and teachers. Lots of you guys have skills and interest's that you could share. You'd be surprized how much you'll learn in return. Les, you could teach them about brevity and how to make sense in 5 words or less! KyHayman and Mart, cglen, don't quit!

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Drillbit

02-18-2004 17:07:46

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Why? Because they don't want people with common sense anymore. If they did teach it who knows what this world would be. They don't want kids to work for anything anymore. They push us to do all kinds of work that we won't likely never use. If it were'nt for Ag. class and shop classes I would'nt be in school right now. I think they need to teach kids things they can use in life after they get out of school. I say this because I'm a proud member of the FFA and love every minute of it. By the way I'm still in high school

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wes

02-18-2004 17:05:07

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

I think the problem with schools today is the lack of qualified teachers. To many people become teachers for the summers off. Or they just want to be coaches. Another thing is that all the rights of the teachers are gone. The students can do what ever they want and if the teachers tries to controol them they are sued. I would never want to teah unless they go back to the days when kids had respect for adults and the teacher had a ruler and knew how to use it. I know that there are good teachers out there (I had a couple great ones), but the good ones seem to be few and far between. As to what teachers make a year, aren't we all underpaid? If I made what I think I am worth I'd have millions in the bank. Teachers, like everybody in my opinion should be paid on performance. Maybe teachers could even be paid according to their students performance on state tests. Just my 2 cents.

Wes

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ok with that

02-19-2004 08:38:55

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to wes, 02-18-2004 17:05:07

In that case --parents that use the school system as a daycare should be taxed at higher rate as well -- and the parents that question why Johnny can't read,write,add,solve a simultaneous equation should be back taxed.

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JD Doug

02-18-2004 21:06:15

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to wes, 02-18-2004 17:05:07

I agree with your statement that teachers should be compensated according to the performance of the students, however, we all need to admit that being a good student starts at home. Mom and Dad (one male and one female, no other combinations!) need to be involved daily in the education of their children.

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Larry NE IL

02-18-2004 19:26:39

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to wes, 02-18-2004 17:05:07

No kidding! I was talking to a high school football coach, also gyn teacher. Said something about how great the showers were, and how I loked forward to them because our plumbing wasn't quite up to date at home.
He told me that almost no one took a shower after gym class, and that no teacher would go near the showers for fear of being accused of something!
What a sad state that is.
Ceaser was right; kill all the lawyers!

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Irv

02-18-2004 16:51:51

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

In my area, kids who want an ag ed class have to go to another school district. Nobody is at fault here, just the reality of creeping suburbs. As for common sense, I believe it was Mark Twain who said " common sense is a most uncommon commodity". From what I have seen most teachers are underpaid. I think that teaching the next generations is one of the most critical jobs in the society. And no I am not a teacher or married/related to one. I kind of wonder how bad some people must be doing to complain about somebody making 30 - 50K per year. If that is rich to you, I guess you must be in a tough spot. My 2c Irv

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ray

02-19-2004 08:32:06

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Irv, 02-18-2004 16:51:51

I was thinking the same thing.

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kyhayman

02-18-2004 16:21:38

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

I hesitated to get into the 'fray' as this issue hits pretty close to home to me. I've been teaching ag mechanics for the last 10 years with a smattering of ag production thrown in and for the past 3 I've also been director of technical education for our school district. While I certainly can not speak to your school or the school you are referring to, and there are certainly bad ag programs and bad ag teachers, there are a host of reasons.

In my case, I had a tech ed teacher who had a formal complaint filed against him for trying to teach some students 'common sense'. Last year I was served with a potential multi hundred thousand dollar lawsuit for a student who dropped a board on himself in another class. Because of the 'budget' they didnt let me hire a production ag teacher until late July. I got sued again b/c we terminated one of those teachers who 'didnt teach animal husbandry' (I was completely cleared but still cost me $5000 in legal bills). Principal told me that with the state testing the ONLY THING that was important was that I taught my kids how to write in the content area, and just had to keep my whole department for an hour after school to make sure they were all doing at least 1.5 hours of writing a week. My highest paid teacher makes $42,000 a year (with 2 masters degrees and 36 years of experience).

Why do I do it? My seniors, every year the best buch of kids I could ask for. Had a half dozen thank me already for taking the heat to teach them mechanics, work ethics, and common sense (plus to take the heat about not teaching any more writing than the boss requires). The 7 kids I had to chase out last night 2 hours after school was out so I could go vote who stayed b/c they wanted to learn about welding exotic metals. Then there were the 50 kids who came in on Saturday (2/14 on a 4 day weekend) to go with me to the National Farm Machinery Show. Still the best jobin the world, I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience.

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ray

02-19-2004 08:30:25

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to kyhayman, 02-18-2004 16:21:38

Thanks for putting in the effort -- it makes a difference.

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02-19-2004 02:18:51

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to kyhayman, 02-18-2004 16:21:38

word of advice, which I know you are aware of-hope that some of those kids that you stay late with or any for that matter-do not charge you with molestation 10 years from now. If you are an educator you know it can happen and you will be put out on your own. Your innocence will mean nothing, as you may not even remember the kid. Interesting to note that KERA has made education a cookie cutter approach and we now no longer measure our educational advances by the test, but teach the test. All curriculm, staffing, facilities, expenses, etc, revolve around one test. That coupled with incompetent/opportunistic adminstration is killing education. Dedication across the board is a thing of the past-people are now units, USED to increase gains in test areas as targeted by KDE. Good luck

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Larry NE IL

02-18-2004 19:37:11

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to kyhayman, 02-18-2004 16:21:38

KYHayman, you are my hero! I'm thankful every day for people like you that stick their necks out for the good of others. Just wanted to let you know that you ARE appreciated. Larry NE IL

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02-18-2004 17:44:14

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to kyhayman, 02-18-2004 16:21:38

from a career tech welding techer for high schoolers - AMEN and AMEN. why is it the academic teachers need our help so the students can pass the state test but they never offer to help us with our curriculum????

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Les...fortunate

02-18-2004 14:20:52

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

In the town where I work, it's condoms and football. Everything else is secondary.

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Art

02-19-2004 02:30:41

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Les...fortunate, 02-18-2004 14:20:52

Exactly, this emphasis on sports is the most idiotic definition of "education" anyone could have ever dreamed of.
In last Sunday's Ft. Worth paper, there was a front page article on how the local high school football players, (with the tacit approval of the coaching staff), continually harrassed and engaged in physical violence against another student.
You ought to see the letters to the editor now appearing in defense of the players and coaches.
They can't teach them to read, write, or figure, but by God, we have a number 1 ranked football team.
Atheletes, whether they be high school, college, or professional, are given a free pass on any and all of their criminal activities, doubt it, look at the tolerance of Bobby Knight, and the glory in which the Cocaine Cowboys, The Dallas Drug Monkeys bask in thanks to the fawning adoration given them and their criminal activities by the media.

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Mark

02-18-2004 13:22:39

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Evidently,very little. They keep lowering the standards so "no child is left behind". Because of this, most students are not even close to realizing their potential.This is the reason the majority of colleges are offering remedial math and english courses to try to get the high school honor students to read and calculate above the eighth grade level.

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Mart

02-18-2004 12:12:19

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

I could talk all day on this subject. As an Ag Mech instructor for 23 years I feel qualified to reply. We teach all children of all abilities and both genders in the same class because that's the law. We have no choice in who or how many can be there. I teach metal working and tractor mechincs, small engines and concrete, carpentry and electrical. On a budget of $2000.00 for 60 -80 students per year. These students go onto college and some stay on the farm or enter the work force. I feel my students are very well prepared for the real world.If anyone would like to visit our program, please come on over, or any other Ag Dept. across this country. Mart from Pa.

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cglenn

02-18-2004 14:09:50

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Mart, 02-18-2004 12:12:19

Amen to all that, I teach Technology Education to 6 - 9th grade students. Smart or less so, I can teach them lots of stuff if they come to school ALREADY TAUGHT HOW TO BEHAVE BY THEIR PARENTS!!!
Whyisit the best behaved ones are the only one's whose parents visit the school on a regular basis and show up for every parent/teacher conference day to check on their kids....my rant for the day.

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Glenn in PA

02-18-2004 13:19:27

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Mart, 02-18-2004 12:12:19

Because a teacher helps me with my tractor addiction....

TIRED OF TEACHERS

I, for one, am sick and tired of those high paid teachers. Their
hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work nine or ten
months a year!

It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they
do...baby-sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage. That's
right..... I would give them $3.00 dollars an hour and only the hours
they worked, not any of that silly planning time. That would be 15 dollars a day.

Each parent should pay 15 dollars a day for these teachers to
baby-sit their children. Now, how many do they teach in a day....maybe
25. Then that's 15 X 25=$375 a day. But remember they only work 180 days a year!

I'm not going to pay them for any vacations. Let's see... *that's 375 x180=$67,500.00 (Hold on, my calculator must need batteries!)

What about those special teachers or the ones with masters degrees?

Well, we could pay them minimum wage just to be fair. Let's round it
off to $6.00 an hour. That would be $6 times 5 hours times 25
children
times180 days =$135,000.00 per year.

Wait a minute, there is something wrong here!!! There sure is, duuh????!!

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Sam MI

02-18-2004 13:45:22

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Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Glenn in PA, 02-18-2004 13:19:27

Geez; with that attitude I sure would not like to get any tractor advice from you. Get a Life

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ray

02-19-2004 08:23:34

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools. in reply to Sam MI, 02-18-2004 13:45:22

While you're at it why not just move all the jobs abroad -- labor is cheaper and put a cap on how many children people on mainland US can have that'll save a few more bucks as well.

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Think about it!

02-18-2004 15:12:14

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools. in reply to Sam MI, 02-18-2004 13:45:22

Read what they said above. Two guys who are making a difference in the future of our kids. Bet they don't come close to $60,000 salary.... These guys give kids who are willing to work skills that last a lifetime. I think they are the best bargain around. We ought to give them a little more support for the job they do instead of bltch*n about how much money they make. Get the sarcasm in Glenn's post? No teachers in my county make $135,000, lot's have Masters degrees. If you want to fix what's wrong in this country, teach our kids skills - instead of sports and s_x, stop sending all our jobs to China and let the teachers teach. Stop thinking that "no child left behind" is going to fix what's broke, focus on learning - not passing tests so the school "looks good". Get the parents to be responsible and get them to teach their kids the same thing. If your kids are the ones that have to be babysat, thus messing up my kids education, then you ain't one to be dishing out advice either! Think about it.

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The Tax Man Commeth

02-18-2004 13:38:38

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Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Glenn in PA, 02-18-2004 13:19:27

I enjoyed your idea of a parent spending $15/day on the teacher's salary.
Let's see, this would be $2,700 per parent for 180 days of baby sitting. Currently, I pay about $4000 per year in property taxes. The school district gets 62% of this $4000 which is $2,480 irregardless of the number of kids I have. I have two kids so my "babysitting" bill would be $2,700 X 2 = $5,400.

Wait a minute, there is something wrong here!!!
There sure is, duuh????!!

Add to this figure the amount of money needed to bus the kids

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master degree wantabee

02-18-2004 15:57:20

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools. in reply to The Tax Man Commeth, 02-18-2004 13:38:38

this makes more sense to me, most teachers I know are there to socialize with other teachers, they are the nerds of the previous school that couldn't get a job or knew nothing of business, except how to buy a car

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Kyle in IL

02-18-2004 12:03:37

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

Nothing new in that. No one's ever taught "common sense", except the school of life, and for that matter, it's not all that common.

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Mike M

02-18-2004 10:31:21

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

They teach sports. Not the 3 R's or even spelling for that matter I'm a terrible speller.

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dhermesc

02-18-2004 12:23:27

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Mike M, 02-18-2004 10:31:21

They should do away with all those classroom courses. Just have a marching band to play at half time and have practice the entire day so they can have football & basketball games twice a week. And for the really rich kids buy a golf course so they can work on their swing.

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tractors or related only

02-18-2004 09:54:45

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Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to Ron, 02-18-2004 09:48:15

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If you don't

02-18-2004 11:53:15

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Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to tractors or related only , 02-18-2004 09:54:45

want to read it based on the caption, then don't.
Would you like to repeal the constitution while you are at it? I know there have been problems on the forums lately....but censorship won't help.

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Just a reminder ....

02-18-2004 13:11:28

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Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools..?? in reply to If you don't, 02-18-2004 11:53:15

I really don't have any real problem with off-topic posts, however if somebody does make mention of the fact to someone who does post off-topic ideas, remember that this IS a tractor discussion forum. You mentioned "reading" the heading for the post, then maybe you could "read" the heading that the webmaster posts about what belongs here. Reminders go both ways I believe.

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Cosmo

02-18-2004 15:20:19

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools. in reply to Just a reminder ...., 02-18-2004 13:11:28

I TAUGHT my son and his daughter to drive my TRACTOR! :)

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What's your point?

02-18-2004 15:16:05

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Schools. in reply to Just a reminder ...., 02-18-2004 13:11:28

You SAY it doesn't bother you but then indicate it does. Did you have something you wanted to say? I think you are accusing him of something but then turning around and doing the same thing.

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Reread my Post

02-18-2004 15:34:27

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our Scho in reply to What's your point?, 02-18-2004 15:16:05

I don't recollect saying anywhere that the off-topic points bother me, at least I don't read that anywhere. I guess I could try to explain to you what I was trying to say but obviously you'd have a wee bit of trouble understanding the explanation if you had difficulty with the post. Interesting that this topic originally started with schools not teaching anything (or people not learning anything).

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OK then...

02-19-2004 11:07:05

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our in reply to Reread my Post, 02-18-2004 15:34:27

You said:

"You mentioned "reading" the heading for the post, then maybe you could "read" the heading that the webmaster posts about what belongs here."

Sounds like you have a problem with something! Clearly you believe in your right to mediate, so I am going to let you run with it.

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I'm Running

02-19-2004 13:35:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in in reply to OK then..., 02-19-2004 11:07:05

I'm running, I'm running. More confused by the minute trying to figure out what you say and mean, but I am running.

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Ron

02-18-2004 15:57:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do they Teach in our in reply to Reread my Post, 02-18-2004 15:34:27

VERY Sorry this is not in some other forum...Where, other than here should it BE..??? I know the Schools are straped for funds..with Tennis, Golf Air-conditioned Theaters... Half of the kids Drive NEW Cars, and run you off the road, OR pass on a Double-Yellow line.... The Principal Stands IN the Drive-Directs Traffic to keep them from running over the Busses.

I didn't intend to start this kind of rukus... I see that no-one has tackled the "Animal Husbandry" part... I believe it is important to KNOW, and understand that, TOO.. ( Recessive Genes, etc...).

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