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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Positive Ground Electrical Systems

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RussellN

04-23-2005 18:54:37




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I was wondering if someone could tell me
why electrical systems were positive ground.
I noticed that older equipment used positive
ground. I have never seen anything with it,
but was wondering why it was used and why you
don"t see it today.

Thanks to all.




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Dell (WA)

04-24-2005 07:04:01




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
Russell..... ...there is a real and practical reason for POSITIVE GROUND. Sparkie gap life. Under combustion pressure, the electrons are attracted from centerpost to side electrode for a slightly longer sparkplug life. Its called the Edison Effect. After ol'Tom E.

The other reason for positive ground is General Motors patent LAWYERS. You use negative 6v ground, you need to PAY.

A better question might be why 6 volts? Its the smallest cheapest battery that would relyably turn a cold starter motor.

Another question to ask, why 12v negative ground? Because the early manufacturing techniques used the GROUND as as heatsink to keep the silicon diodes from melting. They've improved manufacturing techniques since then but conviently use the diode-triode as a heatsink..... ....Dell

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greenbeanman in Kansas

04-24-2005 05:45:22




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
I was taught in auto repair school that vehicle batteries, hence tractor batteries too, have electrical flow from positive to negative.

The reason is that a battery will always have an odd number of plates in it. An extra positive plate provides push to ensure that the energy flow is from positive to negative.

This was back in the mid 1960s and I do know that batteries back then did have an odd number of plates in them. Whether they still do or not I don't know. I only look at the number of plates in a battery if looking at the purchase of deep cycle batteries or otherwise if I think that the plates will heat up and warp if thin.

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Joe Evans

04-23-2005 21:25:03




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
My third quarter instructor at DeVry back in 1975 said, and I quote: "Current flow is from negative to positive; don't let anyone tell you otherwise!"

That is what I was taught. I figure the instructor knew what he was talking about--he had good credentials. He worked for NASA and angrily quit when the three astronauts died in that capsule fire in 1966. Some of the safety features this instructor was trying to get installed were not adopted until too late.

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jdemaris

04-24-2005 06:35:21




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to Joe Evans, 04-23-2005 21:25:03  
Yes, and many with excellent credentials will tell you different. Ask the guy how many electrons he has actually seen. And, if what he claims has been proven, why is it still called a theory and not a law? Sounds like academic myopia and intellectual arrogance to me. I experienced it often in college courses. Theory, in most contexts, is a best-guess on how something works that we are unable to prove. For practical applications, no matter if you follow the Hole theory, or the Electron Theory, it makes no difference when you are working on your tractor.

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jdemaris

04-23-2005 20:52:53




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 Hall Theory said neg. flows to postive in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
There is a clear reason why - there was, and is no consensus on electron flow. Thus the Electron theory - not the Electron Law, that is commonly used today. Years ago, there were two basic, and opposing schools of thought as it relates to current flow. The Electron theory supposes that current flows from positive to negative. There was another commonly used theory that stated the current flows from negative to postive - the Hall Theory. Eventually, a standard was adopted - that of the Electron Theory and making negative ground the standard. It is NOT proven. Conventional theory, also known as HOLE THEORY, states that current flows from POSITIVE to NEGATIVE. Protons or the lack of electrons (the holes) move towards the negative. (Current flow direction in Hole Theory is the opposite of that in Electron Theory.)

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txgrn

04-24-2005 07:33:09




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 Re: Hall Theory said neg. flows to postive in reply to jdemaris, 04-23-2005 20:52:53  
Glad you got magnetism out of the loop.

Having been bred in electron theory via military tech school, I thought it was the only way to go. Since I was repairing things, this made sense and was easy to troubleshoot and understand.

But in going to a campus of higher education and learning how to design circuits, it immediately became obvious why they chose hole theory. Lot easier to come out of a pos power supply and put holes places than to go looking for where electrons might come from.

Now I can (did) do both and when working with someone, just ask their preference and up up and away. Grin

Mark

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jdemaris

04-23-2005 20:56:24




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 Woops - meant Hole Theory - not Hall Theory in reply to jdemaris, 04-23-2005 20:52:53  
Last post title was a typo - I meant to say Hole Theory, not Hall Theory (and the Hall effect).



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dr.sportster

04-24-2005 05:56:26




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 Re: Woops - meant Hole Theory - not Hall Theory in reply to jdemaris, 04-23-2005 20:56:24  
Actually the flow theories can be "proven" for both directions.In electroplating the anodic piece gives off to the cathodic workpiece or part being plating flowing from positive to negative.This proves the pos to neg theory.I forget the case that proves the neg to pos theory but there is one also.Theory and what works can differ sometimes.



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jdemaris

04-24-2005 06:24:08




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 Re: Woops - meant Hole Theory - not Hall Theory in reply to dr.sportster, 04-24-2005 05:56:26  
Yes, I agree. There are many cases where it seems flow has been observed in both directions. But, there is no absolute standard. I have noticed, that some people believe, due to what we regard as our modern day advanced technology, we have a handle on stuff around us. But, it's more like - the more we know, the less we know. Newtonian laws were believed by many to be the standared until some of Albert Einstein's ideas partly expressed in his "Special Theory of Relativity" were tested and proven. So, now we have Newtonian versus that of Quantum Physics. Sub-atominc particles going in the wrong directions, seeming to defy gravity, black holes in outer space with no apparent mass but huge gravitational pulls, etc. Then we have all these titles for things we've never seen - like the vector of tranmission of light and gravity (photons and gravitons). Next time you see high tide caused by the moon's pull, please show me the gravitons. So, what the heck do I know? I must admit, I've never seen an electron or a graviton. If I drive my car at the speed of light, will the headlights still work? Modern science often attempts to explain away the unexplainable with titles. Back to the negative ground versus postive ground. One had to be chosen so there would be a standard - it was NOT done because of any observed advantage.

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tractordave

04-24-2005 13:39:19




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 Re: Woops - meant Hole Theory - not Hall Theory in reply to jdemaris, 04-24-2005 06:24:08  
"If I drive my car at the speed of light, will the headlights still work?" Since the car is the light source, and the source is moving at the speed of light, then the light from the headlights will be travelling 2x the speed of light. Sure, they'll work!
What were we talking about again?
;-)
Dave



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jdemaris

04-24-2005 14:38:10




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 Re: Woops - meant Hole Theory - not Hall Theory in reply to tractordave, 04-24-2005 13:39:19  
One of the main items discussed in Einsteins "
General Theory of Relativity", is . . . relativity of motion. Speed is relative and is a measurement of one thing compared to another. A car on the highway may be traveling 65 MPH relative to the road, but not to much else. But, now take the speed of light - "C", is supposed to be a constant and not relative. Actually, Einstein referred to the movement as velocity, not speed, which is quite different. In the world of science, some felt that Einstiens "General Theory of Relativity" was in conflict with his statements about light travel, so he clarified this in his "Special Theory of Relativity", and later with his "Extended Theory of Relativity." He explained that the velocity of lightin a vacuum is a constant, not relative to a reference body. I've never understood it, I have enough trouble fixing tractors. I just hope that if I ever had to ride in a spaceship on a dark night, at the speed of light - I hope the d*mn headlights work.

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dr.sportster

04-24-2005 06:44:19




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 Re: Woops - meant Hole Theory - not Hall Theory in reply to jdemaris, 04-24-2005 06:24:08  
I always remember teachers saying lightning travels from the ground to the sky.I would think to myself mmmm, not when Im looking at it but I dont want detention again so Ill shutup about that.



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Bob

04-23-2005 20:33:46




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
Sorta like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge or Beta vs. VHS! (Anyone under 30 remember Beta?) Or Green vs. Red!



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John M

04-23-2005 20:30:37




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
It was thought that power "flowed" better that way,or seems I recall reading that.



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tractordave

04-23-2005 18:58:07




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to RussellN, 04-23-2005 18:54:37  
I'm not certain but I have heard there is less corrosion with positive ground systems.
Dave



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Dixieland

04-24-2005 04:27:04




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to tractordave, 04-23-2005 18:58:07  
I have heard the same thing...must be something to it...my Farmalls with positive ground do not corrode at all...course that could be jus good ole dependable tractors I guess...



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staeveormary

04-23-2005 20:24:07




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to tractordave, 04-23-2005 18:58:07  

DC current flows from negative to positive.

steveormary



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jdemaris

04-23-2005 20:36:51




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to staeveormary, 04-23-2005 20:24:07  
That has never been proven, it is theory.



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txgrn

04-25-2005 07:08:04




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to jdemaris, 04-23-2005 20:36:51  
j,

I think the transistor design boys went beyond theory. Don't have my transistor fabrication book handy....the one that talks about so many Angstroms of this and that to make this or that material.

You have to know the e-p ratio in the valence ring of the atom to know what direction electrons are going to move and in designing and doping germanium and silicon, you need to get the right chemicals to define it as P or N material so your customer knows what polarity power supply to hook to it to get it to work.

Additionally, in metallic migration, (ignition systems points and spark plugs) something has to explain why one polarity produces more than the other.

Mark

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jdemaris

04-25-2005 09:15:51




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to txgrn, 04-25-2005 07:08:04  
As I recall, there were many arguments about metallic migration dating to the late 1800s, but ultimately, it has been observed that there is no difference with positive or negative ground systems. Now, to be specific with metallic migration at the breaker-points themselves, that is supposed to be kept in balance by the correct microfarad rating of the capacitor. Some day, if I'm really bored and patient enough to do some reading, I'll have to go through Faraday's discoveries along with those of Lenz and Fleming. Those guys must have had a lot to time on their hands.

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steveormary

04-24-2005 21:02:31




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 Re: Positive Ground Electrical Systems in reply to jdemaris, 04-23-2005 20:36:51  
jdemaris;

and I will leave it at that.

steveormary



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