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OT History Channel- Sugar

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26Red

09-15-2005 09:41:57




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Watched Modern Marvels documentary on "sugar" production last night on the history channel. It was pretty cool, seeing how much sugar is used throughout the US and how it is processed from sugar cane and sugar beets. They also had a segment on how Brazil farms 15 million acres of sugar cane and uses the by products to produces ethanol on a huge scale. Their annual production equals about 450 million barrels of oil... that could make a serious dent in our oil dependance- the US uses 9 million barrels day according to an AP article. (Even the big oil companies in Brazil have there hands in the ethanol business!)

Another interesting note, the big three auto makers are producing cars that run on 100% ethanol. That's all they sell down there. They have little gas starting tanks for cold weather warm up, similar to our old duel fuel tractors...

So my question to everyone here is what the heck is going on here in the US? Why is ethanol priced at a $.40 to $.50 below gas when in Brazil it is HALF THE COST of gasoline! It will never become economical choice at a $.50 break...

And for you enviromentalists: Ethanol does not cost most to produce than oil, does not pollute more than gasoline, and it sure is not as polluting as a crude oil refinerery...

All I want is cheap fuel... I've had it, so now what are we going to do about it? Who wants to start an ethanol producing co-op? I need investors...

I'll step off my soap box now....

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MarkB_MI

09-15-2005 19:03:34




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
By now I should know better than to reply to ethanol posts, but here I go again.

First, common sense tells me that's it's pretty difficult to produce ethanol from corn and get a net energy gain. There are studies from both camps claiming either a net loss or net gain. So it's a matter of who you believe is the bigger liar. Note that big business and government interests on either side of the argument stand to gain or lose depending on the outcome. Since I can't trust either side to tell the truth, I fall back on first three laws of thermodynamics, which say there ain't no free lunch.

Even if you can get a net energy gain from corn-based ethanol, the reality is that agriculture today is heavily dependent on petroleum: Petroleum is what we use not only to fuel our tractors, it generates a significant percentage of the electric power in the country. Also, fertilizer production is dependent on petroleum, not to mention plastics, lubricants, etc. Don't forget that the cropland in the midwest is being gobbled up by development, so much of the corn is this country is grown on poor soil in places where irrigation is required.

Anyway, my point is, even if you do get a net gain from ethanol production, you're going to use up a lot of scarce petroleum in the process. Does this really make sense?

One last comment. I don't think it's entirely reasonable to compare Brazil and the US. Brazil has plenty of rainfall, and when they need more farmground they just burn another million acres of rain forest.

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jhill

09-15-2005 17:21:45




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
From what I remeber I think some of the price difference in Brazil is because the pure Gasoline is taxed at a higher rate to encourage use of the alcohol.



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jfp

09-15-2005 17:10:34




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
Wow that really brought up a response. I'm planning a car that does not use fuel at all. Since no one believes me, I just have to build one and that may take 5 years, so what ! We could cut oil consumption so bad. The only thing is I got to figure out how to get all the people to change over with out the unemployment rate going through the roof. You should do a search on a article about Ron Gremban of Ca. ; he took a Toyota Prius ( a hybrid @ 40 mpg) and modified it to get 80 mpg. There is also a lot talk about a Surbaban getting 200 mpg but I guess how they do it is top secret.

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MarkB_MI

09-15-2005 18:43:57




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to jfp, 09-15-2005 17:10:34  
JFP,

Mr. Gremban got 80 mpg by charging his Prius off the power grid. Which is fine if your next door neighbor has a convenient outside plug for you to use!



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jfp

09-16-2005 02:58:23




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-15-2005 18:43:57  
Can you read and comprehend at the same time? The article says for less than twenty five cents a night. He's an electrical engineer and would not plan on defeating his purpose of saving energy in any way.



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MarkB_MI

09-16-2005 04:16:42




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to jfp, 09-16-2005 02:58:23  
Good morning to you, too, JFP.

My point was that it's meaningless to talk about gas mileage on a vehicle when you're not actually powering it with gas. My '88 Chevy pickup gets about a million miles to the gallon. That is, if you tow it, which is the only way it's likely to move these days.

Let's examine Mr. Gremban's 25 cents a night claim: Assume that he's paying 5 cents a kilowatt hour. And assume a total conversion efficiency of 50 percent, which I think is wildly optimistic, given the losses in the charger, batteries, motor controls and motors.

So:

25 cents divided by 5 cents per kw-h is 5 kilowatt-hours.

At 50 percent efficiency, he gets 2.5 kw-hr to the wheels.

2500 watt-hrs divided by 746 watts per hp gives him 3.4 hp-hours.

How far do you think he's driving on 3.4 horsepower-hours of energy?

As much respect as I have for German engineers, I've known them to do some goofy things. Like buying a Prius, for example.

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jfp

09-16-2005 05:27:34




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-16-2005 04:16:42  
Your math makes no sense to me as I have 3 years college in electrical design . Specializing in super conductors. If I go back to school it will take another 4 years to complete. Yes I do respect German engineering as they built the first jet aircraft in the 40's . I think you are not ready to conceive the possibilities of electric auto's. 1hp electric is equal to about one and three fourths gas. So it takes less electric to do the same work as a gas motor . New inventions are always coming up and at a faster rate than the American public can believe because it seems to far in the future or unreal to them. Good luck in your future.

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Midwest redneck

09-15-2005 16:48:55




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
It would make sense to use Ethanol, but Hey that would be smart. I think the big oil companies want us to be at their mercy. Yes sir--yes sir--I buy gasoline cause I dont know any better. Brazil is (may) be a superpower in 20 years, Brazil is as big as the USA, about half the population I think and lots and lots of natural resources, like farm land and rain forests.



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Joe(TX)

09-15-2005 14:18:28




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
I read all the comment and I came up with a question. What was the price of the gasoline in Brazil? The show did not say it was half the cost of our gasoline did it? Are you going to pay the thousands to convert your vehicle to alcohol. Do you want to pay someone through taxes to produce it and then pay a higher price for it because the subsidy kept the price up?



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26Red

09-15-2005 15:12:03




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to Joe(TX), 09-15-2005 14:18:28  
The conversion to alcohol is relatively inexpensive. You can buy e-85 cars and trucks in the US at no extra cost than a regular model.

www.e85fuel.com

The prices they showed were 2.39 for gas and 1.19 for ethanol- not sure if that was liters or what currency it was though.



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MSM

09-15-2005 18:10:40




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 15:12:03  
Fuel is sold by the litre in Brazil. It was priced in Reals. Gas is approx.$3.54/gal,alcohol is approx.$1.73/gal using todays exchange rate.



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n9lhm

09-15-2005 11:12:49




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
From what I understand, ethanol is a net loss as far as energy goes. It takes more energy to distill it than you can get out of it by burning it. You still have to have some energy input to distill it, whether that is a fossil fuel or something else.



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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

09-15-2005 16:01:19




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to n9lhm, 09-15-2005 11:12:49  
I read an article on that report. Apparently other ethanol scientists loudly debunked the research, showing some ridiculous bias in the oil-company funded report.

The accepted wisdom seems to be that ethanol production can be a net energy gain.



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26Red

09-15-2005 13:18:54




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to n9lhm, 09-15-2005 11:12:49  
Energy loss due to converting one type of energy to another is a fact for any, steam powerplant, machine or electic motor. There are are physical parasitic losses during the conversion that cannot be recaptured- heat, noise, vibration etc. You can't get more energy than you put in than you put out. It is a fact of thermodynamics- any engineers want to help me out here- what's the name of that law?

It's rather how you value the by products of the process that counts (bean counters)!

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Vern-mi

09-15-2005 13:52:41




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 13:18:54  
The change in internal energy of a system (⌂U) is equal to the heat added to the system (Q) minus the work done by the system (W). ⌂U = Q-W



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caseyc

09-15-2005 11:20:38




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to n9lhm, 09-15-2005 11:12:49  
i forget exactly what their proceedure was but it was alot better than americas! the "sugar" gas sells for less than half of what the regular gas sells for down there. they gotta be doing something right.

casey



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NEsota

09-15-2005 10:41:02




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
One day we may look back at today's $3.00 fuel and think it was cheap.



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caseyc

09-15-2005 10:39:30




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 09:41:57  
i watched that also and it made me really really sick!!!!! !!!!! !! i disliked our government before but now i just down right hate it. i'll leave now before i say any more that i'll regret.....

casey



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Red Dave

09-15-2005 12:14:08




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to caseyc, 09-15-2005 10:39:30  
I saw that too. Very interesting to say the least, but I couldn't help thinking that there has to be more to the story that the show didn't cover. They showed a huge difference in the price of gas vs ethanol. Gas & diesel were shown to be about double the price of ethanol. That doesn't make sense and it wasn't explained.

The suspicion I have is that the ethanol is being subsidised. Perhaps by the Brasilian government, perhaps by taxes on the gasoline that aren't on the ethanol.
Wish I knew a little more about it.

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26Red

09-15-2005 13:05:04




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to Red Dave, 09-15-2005 12:14:08  
Yep- it could be subsidized... I didn't like hearing the remarks made by the Brazilian gov't official saying "how can the U.S. have all this wealth and knowledge, and still be held hostage by foriegn oil."

The truth hurts... hopefully our free market economy will come up with a solution soon...But it's tough to do when there is price fixing monopoly forcing the small independant gas station owners out of the business.

The official did say that the Brazilian gov't passed a law requiring ethanol, diesel, and gas at all fueling stations.

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dhermesc

09-15-2005 13:23:27




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 Re: OT History Channel- Sugar in reply to 26Red, 09-15-2005 13:05:04  
Which is cheaper - sending hundreds of billions of dollars overseas for crude, or spending 10 of billions within the US as a subsidy.



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