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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

E85 - revisited.

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Ray(MI)

11-02-2005 16:27:03




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Sorry I misspoke regarding the gasoline/ethanol ratio. But I really feel like you guys beat up on me pretty bad. Other than low economy, I've had no problems..... .




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Leland

11-02-2005 21:25:51




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Ray(MI), 11-02-2005 16:27:03  
But we are just trying to keep you from making a costly mistake trying to pinch a couple of pennies .



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Rauville

11-02-2005 19:51:06




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Ray(MI), 11-02-2005 16:27:03  
There's a big acreage grain farmer in the area that has a "blender's license" and mixes a 30% ethanol - 70% gasoline mixture for use on the farm. He also mixes a 30% soy diesel blend for tractors and other equipment.
He claims that everything on the farm uses the 30-70 mixtures and shows improved power and economy.



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Jay (ND)

11-03-2005 02:58:44




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Rauville, 11-02-2005 19:51:06  
I bet that big-acreage farmer gets 15 more bushels per acre than everyone else too? He's going to eventually hurt his equipment with 30% soy, and it's not possible with either soy or ethanol to see improved mileage or power. Sounds to me like he has to always have a good story for the coffee shop. We have a few of them up here as well.



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MarkB_MI

11-02-2005 19:01:24




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Ray(MI), 11-02-2005 16:27:03  
Ray,

On this forum, any post about ethanol fuels is a lightning rod. You'd be better off sticking to religion or politics. (Of course, ethanol seems to be a little of both.)



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John SD

11-02-2005 17:51:36




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Ray(MI), 11-02-2005 16:27:03  

I've tried E85 also once in a couple late 70's carbureted cars with no problems. The cars were already warmed up when I filled up the tanks with a 2:1 E10/E85 mix. Also ran the cars most of the day and topped off the tank again with E10 because I was a bit leery of cold starting problems. This was in moderate fall temps. The weather wasn't too hot or too cold.

The cars ran fine, maybe even better in city driving with the E85 mix. Out on the highway they still ran good but kinda ran out of steam on the top end. Didn't notice any substantial difference in fuel economy. Your mileage may vary!

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paul

11-02-2005 18:22:05




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to John SD, 11-02-2005 17:51:36  
Are you sure you mixed it that way, or was it a 1:2 mix of E10/E85?

:) :) :)

Gotta have a little fun. :)

Written words come across pretty cold sometimes, most folks are typing with a smile on their face, just sounds a little stark sometimes.

I certainly enjoyed hearing about the experiment. Shoulda said that at the time....

Hope he don't hurt his vehicle, if it wasn't designed for E85 one could have problems that will show up in months of use - not right away. All's we were saying, I think.

--->Paul

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Mike (WA)

11-02-2005 17:14:54




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Ray(MI), 11-02-2005 16:27:03  
Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they "beat up on (you) pretty bad"- You've got to admit, getting the ingredients in a 15-85 mix reversed would pretty much be fatal most of the time in chem lab (at least academically, if not physically). While your error was pointed out, nobody swore at you or called you an idiot, so all in all, I'd say the spirit of this board was preserved. The excellent point was also raised about whether your vehicle is designed for ethanol, and the attendant problems you may encounter if it is not. The good news is, most any question one has, no matter how esoteric, can be answered competently by some denizen of this board. The bad news is, if you've got your facts wrong, it will invariably be pointed out to you. All in all, IMHO, I'm willing to take the bitter with the sweet. How about you?

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Allan in NE

11-02-2005 17:14:34




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Ray(MI), 11-02-2005 16:27:03  
Hey Ray,

Heck, I'm not so sure ya mis-spoke. I'm the idiot that just bought a diesel pickup and the derned fuel is now hoverin' at $3.30.

Next to me, you are a blessed genius! :>)

Allan



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MN Scott

11-02-2005 20:51:03




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Allan in NE, 11-02-2005 17:14:34  
But that diesel should get around 20 MPG verses 10-12 MPG on a gasser and no gasser compares to a diesel when it comes time to pulling a loaded gooseneck. Here in SE MN road diesel finally fell below $3 this weekend to $2.99.



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RayP(MI)

11-02-2005 17:27:44




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Allan in NE, 11-02-2005 17:14:34  
Gotta diesel pickup too - had it for years. Used to make me money. Now it gets to sit in the garage, make a few parts runs, and plow snow!



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cdmn

11-02-2005 20:07:36




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to RayP(MI), 11-02-2005 17:27:44  
Not to be completely provocative, but I wonder what would happen if you ran E85 in a diesel? It seems to me it's made for high compression engines. (Add some lube oil?) It also seems to me that the farmer that brings corn to the still could take his payment in kind. It would be like the days when he brought grain to the feedmill, and traded some of it for grinding, or used 30 acres of hay to feed his draft-horses so he could be self-sufficient.

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Leland

11-02-2005 21:24:27




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to cdmn, 11-02-2005 20:07:36  
They make E95 for diesel engines ,but a wrench spinner for a large city out west that his city uses e95 in buses says the engines using the stuff barely last 150,000 miles and he is always towing one in day after day fuel just 2 dry to use safely in a 25,000.00 engine .



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thejdman01

11-03-2005 04:23:38




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Leland, 11-02-2005 21:24:27  
they will last more then 150,000 miles but these new emission engines and ultra low sulfer diesels are heck ont hese new motors they wont last 1million miles im afraid



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Leland

11-03-2005 04:57:27




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to thejdman01, 11-03-2005 04:23:38  
I am just going by what he said ,and he claims the buses only average 1.5 mpg on E95 and they have to change buses on route all day long due to loss of milage and range covered . But he swears this stuff is poision for any diesel .



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Jon Hagen

11-03-2005 06:23:38




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Leland, 11-03-2005 04:57:27  
Are you sure he said E95? I would bet he means B95 which would be 95% veg oil which has been used for years in diesel engines. E95(95% alcohol is totally wrong for a diesel,high octane,low cetane,less btu's than an oil fuel and very little lubrication for the fuel injection system.



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Leland

11-03-2005 08:37:23




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Jon Hagen, 11-03-2005 06:23:38  
No I said E95 that is what they are calling it on the corn growers web site they said E95 for diesels and E 85 for gasers but you can't switch them around sounded weird to me also



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Jon Hagen

11-03-2005 12:46:04




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to Leland, 11-03-2005 08:37:23  
I did a search on E95 and found this story. What a mess,sounds like they got going down the wrong road trying to run 95% ethanol in a diesel. seems to me they should be trying to use some sort of crop oil for atleast 50% of the mix,and using ethanol for the spark ignition engines.
Here is a cut/paste of one outfits dismal experience with E95 in Detroit 2 cycle diesels.

Presuming Simon and Rabin (1998) is the article Mr. Calvert refers to in the Los Angeles Times, I have now had the opportunity to read and discuss it with several individuals. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority of Los Angeles has had a relatively large number of buses operating on methanol and ethanol fuels for several years. From my discussions with individuals involved in this program, it appears that the methanol fuel used initially was M85 (85 volume % methanol). Then M100 (100 volume % methanol) was used. M85 and M100 each contained an additive package supplied by Lubrizol Corporation. The ethanol fuel was E95 (95 volume % ethanol) denatured with unleaded gasoline. The buses in questionare equipped with modified Series 92 diesel engines manufactured by Detroit Dies el Corporation. One modification is used for M85 and M100 fuels; another is used for E95 fuel. After a brief start-up period (the engines are equipped with glow plugs), the engines operate as compression-ignition engines in the conventional diesel mode. Without further modification, it is not possible to use either the methanol engine for ethanol, or the ethanol engine for methanol. Also, neither engine will operate on conventional diesel fuel without modification.

In their article, Simon and Rabin (1998) state: "After trying to do the environmentally right thing ¾ and failing miserably ¾ the Metropolitan Transportation Authority took steps Wednesday, [presumably February 18] to convert 324 problem-plagued ethanol and methanol buses to run on dirtier diesel fuel." The information I compiled indicates that corrosion and materials-compatibility problems were encountered, and that injector deposits occurred with the methanol-fueled buses at 80,000 to 100,000 miles of operation, and with the ethanol-fueled buses, as early as 5,000 miles of operation. Simon and Rabin (1998) state: "The methanol buses required engine overhauls every 45,000 miles, on average. The ethanol buses were on the road only 20,000 miles between engine failures."

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JMS/MN

11-02-2005 20:50:08




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 Re: E85 - revisited. in reply to cdmn, 11-02-2005 20:07:36  
Running gas in a diesel makes it run hot and ruins the engine. Increased consumption as well. Neighbor found that out years ago on a 4020- local co-op bought him a new engine since they delivered gas into his diesel barrel.



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