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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas

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rboulware

02-22-2006 10:35:58




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I know that with a diesel you have several advantages.

1) Use less fuel consumption.
2) Don't have to worry about ignition system or Carburetor. So you don't have to worry about it sitting up and not cranking.

Besides these two how is the longevity verses gas? What I mean is the Crank shaft, rods, bearings, cam, Valve train. All the internals that is EXPENSIVE to fix. How would a diesel have an advantage in this area? Let take a 4020 Gas and a diesel for example....

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Mike M

02-24-2006 12:13:59




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
Get one of those older IHC tractors,start on gas then switch over to diesel. Then you can have the best (and the worse) of both worlds.



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Ryan - WI

02-23-2006 15:13:36




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
I skimmed the posts below so if someone already covered this I apologize.

Gasoline is a really good solvent (thats why some use it in the parts washer and clean their hands with it etc.) Unfortunately however, that gasoline also tends to wash down the walls of the cylinders. This takes away some of the lubricating principles of the oil and causes rings to wear sooner. Diesel on the other hand has a high sulfur content which works really well as a lubricant. This tends to be what allows diesels to operate longer before a rebuild than a similarily equipped gas engine.

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rpg52

02-23-2006 08:11:45




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
I forget the quote now, but sometime in the past I saw a comparison that said if you use your tractor more than ?1-200? hours per year you should get a diesel. If less, you should get a gasser. For hard use a diesel wins every time, for occasional use gas is cheaper to maintain and the fuel cost is less relevant. Diesels are way expensive to repair, but last a lot longer. I'm in the low hours category, I always run the carb dry on my gasser when I park it. Seems a lot easier to start next time I need it.
Ray

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john_bud

02-23-2006 07:25:46




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
There is one point that I didn't see in the postings.

Diesel runs much cooler than gas. So, if you are really putting the wood to it, the gas engine has a higher chance of overheating than the diesel engine. This can become apparent when bush hogging or doing any other dusty operation where the fins in the radiator get clogged up a bit. It has a bigger affect on the gas engine than on the diesel.

Diesels are also harder to start in real cold weather and take longer to warm up.

I would also be curious as to what percentage of diesel tractors catch fire as compared to gas tractors? I have seen a few burned up old fords at the junk yard and they all were gas.

jb

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Brad Wright of MO

02-23-2006 13:48:05




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to john_bud, 02-23-2006 07:25:46  
You dont see diesels burn up because diesel dosent light without lots of compression. You could take a match to diesel that spilled on the ground and it would go out. Diesel does not light without combustion. Thats why diesel engines dont have spark plugs.



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MaD Farms

02-23-2006 06:01:54




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
I have a 4000 gas and a 4020 diesel. Granted the tractors are not identical, there is no comparison as to which has the power.The diesel wins hands down. And I would"nt give up that 24 volt starting system for anything. That baby cranks over.



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chrisco

02-22-2006 23:16:14




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
you only put 500 hours on a 4020 gas i put more than that on my b10 allis in the 5 years i had it. i thingk me and my dad had 5000 hour on a 186 hydro with no problems.



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buickanddeere

02-22-2006 19:01:38




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
A well tuned gasser running on unleaded,using an electronic ignition, ideal air/fuel ratio and the coolant kept at 195F. Is a different animal than leaded gasoline in a too cool running, poorly tuned carb and worn a electrical system engine.



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kyhayman

02-22-2006 17:31:52




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
Of my own, I've never been into a Ford diesel engine, even at 10,000 hours. Never had a Ford gas engine make it to 4000 hrs that I didnt have to go into.

Just picking on Fords for an example. Where I have apples to apples to compare, getting at least twice as many hours diesel v. gas on an overhaul.



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rboulware

02-22-2006 19:12:43




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to kyhayman, 02-22-2006 17:31:52  
When you say go into what do you mean? Carb? Points Condenser? Plugs?
OR Do you mean Crank rods and pistons?



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kyhayman

02-22-2006 19:35:09




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 19:12:43  
The inner-most guts, walls, pistons, bearings, etc.



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rboulware

02-22-2006 14:14:24




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
4020 gas is HARD to find!!



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cj3b_jeep

02-22-2006 13:22:11




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
I bought a diesel although I was not really in the market for one, I was just lookin' for cheap power. The idea of diesel is kind of daunting, I really know nothing about them and never owned one. I like the idea of no electrical system, diesel fuel is a bit more, but my tractor is pretty easy on it. Has a lot of power for the punch and has never given me a problem yet.



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buckva

02-22-2006 13:06:14




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  

Diesel burnes, gas explodes. This is the difference. When diesel is ignited by compression it burnes to the bottom of the ignition stroke. When gas is exploded by electrical igniton it is over and it is possible that by the time the piston reaches the bottom of the igntion stroke, it will actually be pullin vacuum rather than contributing to power



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Gary Schafer

02-22-2006 18:11:01




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to buckva, 02-22-2006 13:06:14  
Gas doesn’t explode. It burns just like diesel does but at a different rate. If it exploded it would blow the head right off the engine. It is a controlled burn. The energy is not all over in one shot. There is pressure derived all the way through the power stroke otherwise there wouldn’t be any point in having much of any stroke in an engine.

If the piston was pulling vacuum as it neared the bottom of the stroke then there wouldn’t be any need for the exhaust stroke. No fire would ever come out the exhaust.

Both diesel and gas engines operate in a similar manor but differ in the way ignition is performed. The diesel relies on high compression to produce enough heat to self ignite the fuel but once ignited the rest happens almost the same.

Regards
Gary

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rboulware

02-22-2006 19:16:47




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to Gary Schafer, 02-22-2006 18:11:01  
So would you say they would BOTH last as long as the other? As far as the interanl parts of the engine goes?



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Joe Evans

02-22-2006 13:57:06




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to buckva, 02-22-2006 13:06:14  
You are quite right.

Also added to this is the fact that diesel fuel can be misted into the burning morass as the piston goes down further adding to the mean effective pressure during the power stroke.

This action may happen with fuel injected gasolines engines now. Do not know.



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benny2

02-22-2006 12:58:23




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 The use dictates fuel Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
Its a no brainer, if you use your equipment a lot at todays fuel cost it is "diesel"

I call it the 10% difference. Spark ignition engines are only 25% efficient, Diesel or compression ignition are 35%+ With bio diesl fuel comming on line in most places in a few years and the fact more than likly going to be subsidized for farm use it is the only economical choice is diesel. But if this a big playtoy it really makes little deference.

Just an example: I cut a spot with a brush hog with 800 ford gas 25 gallons gas.
Same spot same mower 2000 ford comparable size Diesel engine 12 gallons diesel.
Thats the difference cash at todays price lets say $2.00 = $26.00 in my pocket that money spends just as well for me as it does for Exxon

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George in Biloxi

02-22-2006 11:50:26




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
Hello,
Diesels by "usual" nature are built much heavier. The block, heads, crank, about everything is more stout. This also aids in their torque values with momentum. Also, diesels typically operate with a slower RPM. Usually, the faster things go, the shorter their life. This is shown in animals too. The faster the heart rate, the lower the life expectancy. New, high rpm diesels are not really included in this. The parts are much lighter, higher rpm, the benefits disappear. There are a lot of things to consider.

I have rambled enough,
George

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rboulware

02-22-2006 12:00:10




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to George in Biloxi, 02-22-2006 11:50:26  
Well it seems in the tractor world things are more equal. Both engines run very low rpms and both engines are built REALLY heavy...

How durable is the FORD 9N and 8N tractors? given they are serviced correctly...



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George in Biloxi

02-23-2006 10:10:38




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 12:00:10  
Hello,
Your right. And as JDEMARIS points out, there can be less of a difference. I have a 9N. They are built like little brick sh!t houses. They last a long time too. I was saying usual. If all of us wrote the legaleze type of writing to clarify each point and include everything, Ms Kim would have to keep buying servers and hard drives. This has nothing directly related to tractors, however, I love information, and the sharing of it. Here is a web site with a guy that knows some chit. I do not agree with everything, however, a lot of good info. And he has some articles about gas vs. diesels, etc. Hope it is helpful.

George

Link

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jdemaris

02-22-2006 12:28:39




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 12:00:10  
Things are sometimes equal, sometimes not. Some tractors use a fairly light duty gas engine as compared to a heavier diesel, whereas with others, the gas engine is almost identical to its diesel counterpart, e.g same number of main bearings, same crank journal sizes, same cubic inch displacement, etc. Cletrac/Oliver, Ford, Allis Chalmer, etc. often used the same engine blocks for gas or diesel versions. Deere usually did not. All depends on who made it and when. Diesels tend to have considerably less horsepower per cubic inch than gas engines, so with many makes, the gas engine will be smaller than its diesel counterpart for the same tractor - to keep the horsepower ratings equal. In regard to the Ford 8N an 9N tractors, the engines are adaptations from Ford Model A car engines. With expenses - diesel fuel weighs more than gasoline, i.e. it has more engergy value per pound or gallon. Also, if you have a diesel tractor you can easily get fuel with no highway tax on it. Several downsides include the extra batteries and heavier starters needed, cold weather starting issues, and the high price of diesel injection parts. Take a pickup truck for example. With a gas engine, you might want to change the spark plugs once or twice every 100,000 miles (or an old truck every 20,000 miles). A diesel truck with IDI pintle injectors, they ought to be changed every 100,000 miles. The injectors can cost $25-$100 apiece - that's a bit more costly than spark plugs. I just bought brand new injectors (not rebuilt) for my 87 Chevy diesel at $22 each, and for my 94 Ford turbo-diesel at $37 each. I just got done rebuilding the fuel injectors in my Allis Chalmers HD4 bulldozer, and including new tips, it cost me $200 to do four injectors.

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souNdguy

02-22-2006 11:23:42




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
Lots of variables... Gassers hit you up for small $ every year.. points.. plugs, wires, caps.. etc.

Diesels pretty much run till they die and then hit you for large $$ money.

Both of them use filters yearly so that is a wash.

Another deal to think about. The average joe that has ever had a gas lawnmower can r&r spark plugs and clean a carb.. etc... on the flip side... setting diesel fuel pump timing, etc, etc.. it more like 'real' mechanic work.. I'd have no quals to r&r the head gasket on my gasser 8n.. but I'd be a bit leary on my 5000 diesel.. etc.. whole lot more compression...
One point.. when you get into higher altitudes it ain't hard to reset points and tweak a carb mainjet... not much you can do for a manually aspirated diesel.. though the turbo units breath fine.

Soundguy

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B.Jones

02-22-2006 11:21:33




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to rboulware, 02-22-2006 10:35:58  
I think at least part of the answer lies in how you drive it and what you use it for. If you pull a gas tractor very hard your exhaust temperature gets very high. That can cause it to burn valves, pistons, etc. The diesel temperature runs much cooler unless you have the pump turned up too high. This is a bit of a guess but I think most diesel tractors will run twice as many hours before major overhaul as the gas version. The overhaul may cost more but at least it is not as often. I think a 4020 is a very good tractor but it is rare when I hear someone brag on the gas model. I am sure there are some people that really like their 4020 gas. A friend of mine found a good diesel to put in his 4020 gas tractor. I must admit he likes the diesels better.

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Jerry/MT

02-22-2006 15:46:41




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to B.Jones, 02-22-2006 11:21:33  
Diesel temperatures are much higher than gas engine temperature. That's why they spray oil under the piston crown to cool them and that's one reason why the diesel crankcase volume is so big. Oil is used as a heat sink. The higher temperatures and higher compression ratios are what give the diesel the advantage in thermal efficiency.



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Mike M

02-22-2006 13:27:09




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to B.Jones, 02-22-2006 11:21:33  
Let me be the first to brag about a 4020 gas ! Dad and I have one and love it. Owned it for maybe 10 years now ? Let me also say it is in what and how we use it.
This is not used for real farming. It has a loader on the front and a blade on the back all the time. In those 10 years we maybe put 500 hours on it. Thats why the amount of gas it sucks isn't too bad an issue. The colder it gets the better it starts,bought it cheaper than a diesel but it is capable of doing almost the same work.Don't have that pesky 24 volt system to deal with.But niether do the way more expensive side consol models. Mostly just fire it up run around do some quick lifting/hauling jobs then shut it off. All this starting and stopping and short work it does great. I don't think it would be the best for a diesel to do this ? Did I mention that when running in a building it doesn't want to choke you as fast. The brand new diesels are pretty good for this,but then they are big bucks too. I can't say enough good about 4020's gas or diesel both have there place.

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david from mo

02-22-2006 16:00:31




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to Mike M, 02-22-2006 13:27:09  
Whoa the gas exhaust fumes will kill you first !



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Mike M

02-22-2006 16:19:20




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 Re: The Deal with Diesel vs. Gas in reply to david from mo, 02-22-2006 16:00:31  
I'm not talking about running in an enclosed building just like when you have the door open and handling something with the loader. Those older diesels smoke will burn your eyes and choke you real quick just running in and out.



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