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Ethanol Questions

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Blue3992

02-22-2006 14:03:43

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Just some basic questions regarding ethanol as a fuel:

Why is E-85 (as in 85% Enthanol, 15% gasoline) the magic number? Why can't we burn 100% ethanol?

What would it take to convert a normal modern car to be able to use 100% ethanol?

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jhill

02-22-2006 20:11:21

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

E-85 is highly corrosive and attacks copper and steel also most types of rubber and gasket materials. Fuel pump commutators are carbon instead of copper and carbon steel is replaced with plastics or stainless. I worked on fuel pumps for use with E-85 back in the early 90's and it was quite a project.

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Duner Wi

02-22-2006 20:21:39

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to jhill, 02-22-2006 20:11:21

I have a flex fuel Lumina . Fuel pump from GM cost over $1,800.00 for pump only. Are the carbon commutators that expensive or is there more to a flex fuel pump than I realize?? Thanks for explaining some of the differences.

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MarkB_MI

02-22-2006 19:39:59

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

I don't think the fuel is ever 85% ethanol, except during the hottest months. 85% is the maximum, with just enough gasoline for good starting in warm weather. Ethanol doesn't vaporize very well, so you need more gas in cold weather for good starting.

I suspect that any car capable of handling E85 would run on pure alcohol.

BTW, you can't get 100 percent pure ethanol under normal conditions. Above 96 percent, ethanol will absorb water from the air until it's diluted down to 96 percent. Which is why grain alcohol is 186 proof (93 percent).

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Russ from MN

02-22-2006 17:44:19

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

I have heard that you need to have some gas mixed in to get an engine started at lower temperatures

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02-22-2006 16:51:29

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

Also the viscosity of alchohal is differant than gas, to run it you would need bigger jets in a carb or bigger nozzles in an injection system along with the other mentioned things. That used to be a common thing back in the '70s with the gas shortages then. a lot of Farmers set up their own still, but found out was not cost produtive.

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Jerry/MT

02-22-2006 15:40:48

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

In Brazil they do just that. I can't remember all the details but the energy density of alchohol( mpg is less) is not that high but I think you can run higher compression ratios so there' s a thermal eficiency benefit. The fuel system rubber pars have to be modified to compunds that don't deteriorate in alchohol. Alchohol is hygroscopic (it attracts water) andther are problems with condensate in the fuel tanks.There are some safety issues with it because it's highly flamable and because when it burns the flame is barely visible.

But evidently Brazil runs a very high percentage of their cars on methanol derived from biomass. Don't see why we can't in this country except that we don't have the infrastructure and maybe the will to do it.

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KIP in MX

02-22-2006 17:53:58

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-22-2006 15:40:48

I lived in Brazil back in 1975-76, and about 40% of their cars had to be manufactured for alcohol at that time.
Even when I lived there from 1991-1999, they still had quite a few alcohol cars in use. The fuel is straight ethanol and most of these cars have small gasoline tanks under the hood for starting. There is a choke-type cable you pull to switch fuels. The cars are notorious for being cold-natured and rusted out exhast systems due to the water, which you can sometimes see run out of the exhaust when the cars are running, and, the exhaust smells like booze.

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730 virgil

02-22-2006 15:14:36

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

ethanol has to have gas added to it before it can leave were is made if is 100 % ethanol would come under bureau of atf rules

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buckva

02-22-2006 16:53:51

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to 730 virgil, 02-22-2006 15:14:36

So I can go down and fill up the tank at $2.00 and come home seperate the gas/alcohol and sell said alcohol at $25.00. Boy that sure is going to be easier that makin it from scratch.Guess the givernment will want to know why the old pickup gets only 0.02 mpg though.Now some of you anti givernment folks think that the givernment ain't helpin us out.

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Jon Hagen

02-22-2006 18:00:48

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to buckva, 02-22-2006 16:53:51

That one came up while checking if it might be practical to do an on farm ethanol plant. The BATF decided at the time(20 years ago) that 1 gallon of gasoline in 100 gallons of ethanol (1%)was enough to "denature" it,render it undrinkable and impossible to remove by distillation. I have also heard that the E85 mixture with 15% gasoline is for better cold weather starting.

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buckva

02-22-2006 16:52:37

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to 730 virgil, 02-22-2006 15:14:36

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Iowa Jim

02-22-2006 14:18:09

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Re: Ethanol Questions in reply to Blue3992, 02-22-2006 14:03:43

The Federal Government has mandated a 15% gasoline addition to prevent the consumption of "ethanol" by humans.

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