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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT - Post Beam barn rework

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Jon (IN)

01-11-2007 11:41:16




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I've got a 110+ year old post and beam barn that needs some rework done to it. It's approx 50'x 65'x 30' tall. The foundation has settled in some corners and some of the lower walls have rotted away. I am in the process of jacking some of the corners up and resetting them. The thing really needs a roof, then it will be good to go, but I want to get the foundation solid, before putting the expense of a roof on it and trying to jack around on it after the roof is on. Here's my question though. Some of the horizontal beams have either rotted or came apart at the joins with the upright beams. These are in the main structural area. Some have been repaired in the past with iron straps bolted through them to hold them together, and one in the middle has a cable tied between the 2 uprights to hold them in unison. Kind of hard to explain but hopefully you get the picture. I have attached a pic I tood a while back of a corn picker, but you can see somewhat how the barn is built. This picture is along the edge though and doesn't show the structural part of the barn. What size cable do you think is needed to pull and hold the uprights together. Could I get by with a small cable and say a 4 ton puller? The one that is on the middle uprisers is a large 3/4" cable and chain type comealong.

Maybe I will get some pics to help explain. But any thoughts from anyone with this type of experience would be appreciated.

Oh yeah, ( I don't want this to sound rude) but I don't need a lecture about how dangerous this stuff is and to let it up to a professional. I am very aware of the dangers and take lots of precautions when we work on it.

Thanks,

Jon

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jdemaris

01-12-2007 06:52:59




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
You didn't post any photos of the upper section where the rafters are. I've had fix many post & beam barns - I still own two that were built 1820-- 1850. The house I live in is also mortise and tenon and was built 1820. Although most of these old barns have almost non-existant foundations other than a few rocks piled on the ground, the area that usually does them in is up above. A gable-two-pitched roof puts tremendous outward pressure on the top-sides of the barn. I.e., the bottom of the triangle bellies out as gravity pushes vertically down on the ridge-peak. Something must be there to serve as a "collar-tie." Most of these older barns were held together with a few wood pins at these points. And, most pins, along with the tenon joints rotted out years ago. So, sideways cabling is the easiest and safest. 3/8" cable between each set of upright beams works fine. If this is a "one man" operation, this is how I do it. Wrap something protective around the top-upright where you are going to loop the cable around. Otherwise it will cut into the wood. If the wood is gone or rotted, scap some new wood in. Then, after the cable is looped around it and fastened with a couple of bolt-on cable clamps - run it sideways to the opposing upright on the other side. Loop the cable around and then part way back (maye half-way) and put a temporary loop on the end. Then, hooked a come-along to that loop back to the first top-post you were working on. Then, crank the cable tight - or beyond tight if the barn-sides need to be drawn back in to a certain point. When it is where you want it - just install some double cable-clamps and then cut off the remains of the cable (or just leave it if you want). Of course - use some common sense. It won't be fun if the barn comes down with you in it.

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vitzarus

01-11-2007 20:10:59




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
I believe you want to keep this structure in origional location so continuing.. We know the reason for the existing cables and braces were to keep it squareish short term. Some may need backed off as one gets materials together and the jacking progresses. The sill or bottom plates are most likely rotted and taken shape to foundation masonry . It would seem a jack point under each verticle beam would allow the introdution of new wood for sill as needed and new foundation to meet it. One could not exceed a certain amount without reference to the rest.

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Bill(Wis)

01-11-2007 20:06:28




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
See if Bender Builders can give you any useful advice. They specialize in straightening and repairing old barns in the midwest. Everything I have heard about them has been good. They have a website. Bender Builders.



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Eric SEI

01-11-2007 19:29:07




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
Successful Farmings website (agriculture.com) has a link to Barn Again. There is good information on rebuilding old barns there.



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NE IA Dave

01-11-2007 17:56:51




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
From what I see in the picture, you have no problems to speak of. A 3/8" cable making a complete loop will drag that barn anywhere you want to put it. A come along is what we use to tighten the cable, or should I say get rid of the excess slack. A large turnbuckle has limited movment after you hook up. You will need approx ten cable clamps to get the first pull, you will get them all back after movement is done except two if you do it correct, as well as the turn buckle. If it is what I think, a simple RR jack, or a handy man will move it also (set off level towards your direction of push). You are not dealing with alot of weight, my first try (if I can see by the picture) would be to try a big pry bar and a block. I think you are only trying to basicly skid it. Grab a 6 x 6 20 ft long and some RR ties as the base of a pry point- bet you can lift it without even filling your pockets with sand. Another option is a large tractor with a hydrolick bucket / loader. For crying out loud do not try to use the clutch, put tractor in park a pry it over with the bucket as the clutch is not steady enough. I am assuming the posts are going outward, seldom see them going inward. The bucket will work with a log chain, again not a clutch thing.

You may want to scab some 2 x 8s along side the plate if they are rotten (judging from your picture again). You will need to fur out the outside anyway so you can attatch your new siding anyway. If you go to say a 2 x 12 you can anchor the post --kill two bird with a single stone--

You probably will need a lot of toilet paper if it is your first try at this, it will snap and pop pretty loud. Always limit your pulls at any one point to not exceed probably eight inches ahead of the next post or you could get a little structural strain. Rotted items must be considered. As they are the most unpredictable.

Sorry the word foundation takes in alot of meaning (not meant to be rude) a lot in our area have only a big flat rock under them, some a stacked pier of morted rocks. I can not tell by the picture again. If indeed it is off the ground by more than a foot, that is another very unstable situation, not necessaraly a problem if you are aware.

A option to less out of the pocket cost is to ask the Amish to assist you, or pay him for his advise on a limited basis. The Amish in our parts do pretty crude work, but is enough for them to get by. I am always puzzled that by being born Amish somehow gives them the edge on wisdom. That question is one I always ask a few of my amish friends, they remind me they have more time to think as they walk behind their big butted best friend--no this particular time I'm not refering to their wifes. This one guys wife could pull a beer wagon without breaking a sweat.

Good luck, and will try to review your next pictures. NE IA Dave

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Bill in NorthCentral PA

01-11-2007 12:42:29




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
I did a similar, although completely siding barn a couple of years ago. Lift up at the top beam and let the bottom come up for the ride. I cabled where I could with 3/8" and the biggest come-a-long I could with permanent turnbuckles. I found pulling wasn"t enough, but if I put tension and then pounded, things would move all right. I also put blocking at each joint (2 x Beam thickness x 2" long) to supplement the bearing area of each joint.

Good luck,

Bill

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mowr

01-11-2007 11:50:32




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
A farmer told me of the efficient and quality repairs to his (basement type) barn (including replacement of the center support beam) that were done by the Amish. Might be something to look into if you haven't already.



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Jon (IN)

01-11-2007 12:04:58




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to mowr, 01-11-2007 11:50:32  
Yeah, I probably will check in with the Amish. But I have seen some of their pole barn work around here and it leaves quite a bit to be desired. I don't think they are as good as they used to be.

Thanks.



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mile0001

01-11-2007 12:59:54




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 12:04:58  
As with anything there are some that are good and some that arn't as much. We've some around here that do great work and some that don't.

Huge congrats on saving an old barn! We've done some work on ours, (putting in new sills) but could still use some more work.



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Jon (IN)

01-11-2007 11:42:54




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:41:16  
third party image

here's a pic... will get more later.



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vitzarus

01-11-2007 14:04:50




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to Jon (IN), 01-11-2007 11:42:54  
I"m not an expert on PBS whould would just pull it down nor do I have the entire knowledge of how to perform a detailed descip of any operation. I think you are one the right track by trying to keep it squarish by cables while you adjust and fill the foundation.If you probably already did it measure the origional platform for where the walls were origional square as close as they were built. The cables are good and the actual diam can be decreased by half since side planks are missing or removeable and some done outside as well as inside so as not to twist. What you are aiming for is something between perfect and how it actually was and you can"t allow it to come apart while acheiving level on one corner. So by accurate measurements recorded on graph paper you can measure the relative progress and not stress too much at center where there are hidden anchors or throw the side wall off. This is only the beginnings so let me back out.

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StuBC

01-12-2007 08:33:48




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 Re: OT - Post Beam barn rework in reply to vitzarus, 01-11-2007 14:04:50  
third party image

For ideas on anything this is what I have been working on. 5 bay, pine timbers. Angle iron/lag bolts are my joiners. I have the angle braces to do, then 2x6 16' roof joists, strap and tin.



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