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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder Dies

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Big Davie

04-13-2007 13:41:16




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Hi,
I bought some Castrol Tection 15W-40 Diesel rated engine oil...can I use it in my JD 720 Diesel? I normally use regualar car type 10W-40...

Will it work OK or is it better used in Deisel trucks or newer diesel tractors?

Thanks!




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Pathand

04-14-2007 05:50:10




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Big Davie, 04-13-2007 13:41:16  
Now whats the matter with just using straight 30w all summer and like most of us that diesel gets parked for the winter. My 620 and 60 get good grade10w30 for the winter and chaned back to 30w for summer the 720D 30w approved for diesel and the gas tractors get the same. Keep it simple. These tractors have worked 50, 60 years like this why do you want to try to change things now.



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Jon Hagen

04-13-2007 15:26:50




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Big Davie, 04-13-2007 13:41:16  
The multiweight Diesel rated oil is much better for your JD diesel than the gas engine multiweight you are using now. The diesel oil still has the zinc phosphate additive needed for your tractors flat tappet camshaft, which has all but been eliminated from gas engine oil because it reduced the life of cat converters. The diesel rated oil will also have a additive package designed to keep diesel engines cleaner. A few years ago JD dropped the restriction of using only single weight oil in older tractors, they now say multiweight is fine for all JD tractors no matter what age.

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jdemaris

04-14-2007 11:10:39




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Jon Hagen, 04-13-2007 15:26:50  
In regard to the comment - "A few years ago JD dropped the restriction of using only single weight oil in older tractors" Where did you read that?

I suspect that many - if not most people would not know the difference if a certain oil reduced
the life of their engine by - let's say 10%, 20%, etc. I'm speaking of a collector's tractor - not
one being used daily for hard work. Years ago - when I worked for a Deere dealer - we got
hammered if an engine lasted 8000 hours instead of 10,000 - but that's a different situation. I contacted a friend of mine who is a retired Deere engineer. Asked him a few questions to
refresh my own memory. He retired from Deere in 1994 and worked in engine-design an
testing. He states that Deere never dropped their recommendation - to avoid - when possible -
polymer-based multi-viscosity oils in any diesel that uses conventional square-sided piston-rings.
All multi-oils use the said polymers except for the synthetics. The issue is one of polymers burning off and leaving heavy deposits that cause pre-mature
top-ring wear. This problem was eliminated with the use of triangle-shaped Keystone rings in
the top piston-grooves. This matches information I have from both Deere and Detroit Diesel - my newest bulletin dated
1991. I also know that some rebuild companies for Detroit Diesel 2-strokes will still void the
warranty if a multi-visc. oil is used unless it's synthetic.

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Jon Hagen

04-14-2007 11:40:55




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to jdemaris, 04-14-2007 11:10:39  
JD, my oil information came from a JD shop forman a couple years ago,who said that with the new "low ash" multi viscosity oils that top ring sticking and buildup are no longer a problem, when I asked him if I still needed to use single weight oil in my 4020. He said the JD 15-40 multiweight was fine for any JD, no matter how old If you notice, most any newer multi weight series 3 diesel oils meet the Detroit diesel CD II spec which eliminated the need for a special low ash oil for them. I question your friends comment that multiweight synthetics do not have the same polymer viscosity improvers as multiweight mineral oil The additive package between synthetic and mineral oil is nearly identical, with only the thin base oils being different. A multi weight is a thin oil to give you good cold start lubrication,with the viscosity improving polimer additive that thickens as the oil heats up. A lot has changed in the 16 years since your 1991 D D oil buletin, within the last 5 years, almost all diesel oil uses low ash additives that eliminate the ring sticking problem, so no special oil is required. I checked that out very carefully, as I still run several 2 cycle Detroit diesel powered machines, and was very aware of their special oil requirements.

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Jon Hagen

04-14-2007 17:24:46




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Jon Hagen, 04-14-2007 11:40:55  
Now JD, I think you have a bit of luddite in you.

You said "I will assume that you do NOT automatically assume that someone holding the status of shop foreman is an authority on the subject. If you do - we have a problem since I was a Deere Ag. and Ind. shop-foreman for 12 years. So, how does one choose which shop foreman to believe?"
By your own statement,should I disbelieve anything you post just because you were a JD shop forman for 12 Years, or should I assume that your position in charge of a dealership repair shop should make you somewhat more enlightned than the average man on the street ?

And yes, I do check the company web site of any oil I choose to use to see what they recommend for the application. I mean no disrespect for you and your retired JD engineer friend, but you must realize how much motor oil has changed in the last 2-3 years because of the tight diesel emissions rules that demand the cleaner running on road, off road and ag diesels.
While the new oils are more expensive, they can handle soot, heat and loads that were impossible only a few years ago. The great part is that when these oils are used in an older, pre emissions diesel, you see less wear in spite of longer run time between changes.

As to my Detroit 2 cycle engines and multiweight oils, mine are both 400+ HP 8V92's in semi tractors pulling 80,000 + pounds,but they are farm trucks that that are fired up long enough to get the air up and get the coolant up to the 140 range before pulling a full load that never exceeds 6 miles from field to farm. Under these conditions,milti viscosity oil causes less wear than single grade 40+ viscosity oil because these trucks hardly get the oil warm before the job is over. If I was to load up and run 500 miles before shutting down, I would them use the 40 or heavier single weigh oil as it might or might not be the lesser evil. The same advice would go to the owner of a classic tractor.
Do you remember when it was bragging grounds when a 50's car ran 100,000 miles before needing an overhaul ? Now we are put out if our car engines do not run at least 200,000 miles. Granted,the newer engines are better built, but the modern multi viscosity oils,now usually 5w-20 or 5w-30 have a great deal to do with that also. You see the same thing with a rebuilt classic engine run on modern oils. Things are changing very rapidly and most of it is for the good, Do not dismiss modern oil just because it is newer than the machine you poar it into. :-)

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jdemaris

04-14-2007 14:07:27




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Jon Hagen, 04-14-2007 11:40:55  
I will assume that you do NOT automatically assume that someone holding the status of shop foreman is an authority on the subject.

If you do - we have a problem since I was a Deere Ag. and Ind. shop-foreman for 12 years. So, how does one choose which shop foreman to believe? I say don't believe any of them and do your own research.

I don't assume that someone who is an engineer is automatically an authority either. I learned that a long time ago - especially with some Deere engineers I worked with. I'm picking on Deere - only because I've never worked along side any other sort of engineer. But, my father-in-law is a retired Ford engineer and he's filled me in a little about how things work in his type of world.

I use spec. charts from oil companies for my own peace-of-mind. And - judging from the oils and their specs - that I use - I disagree with much of what you stated. But - you are free to use what you wish - and believe what you want - just as I am.

Most synthetic oils have much more stabil bases in regard to viscosity and do not use the same polymers and petro-based oils.

As I said previously - when I'm in doubt - I don't like taking chances and prefer to use something proven by time - not by computerized projections (that are sometimes used).

In regard to the new oils being fine with Detroit 2-strokes? I still use the old standy - Rotella T 15W-40 in much of my stuff - but not my Detroits. I got two machines with 3-53s and one with a 3-71. The current data sheet for Rotella T 15W-40 reads (and note the Detroit comments) : Shell Rotella T 15W-40 - 100 degrees C - 15.7 viscosity, 40 degrees C =- 118 vis. Note: Detroit Diesel Series 53, 71, and 92 engines operating in ambient temperatures below
0°F - otherwise use straight 40W.

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dad's88

04-14-2007 11:18:43




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to jdemaris, 04-14-2007 11:10:39  
Someone had better complain to MOLINE that DEERE engineers are giving out bad info at the farm progress show than.



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dad's88

04-13-2007 20:27:54




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Jon Hagen, 04-13-2007 15:26:50  
At least two years ago at the farm progress show I stopped by the JOHN DEERE display and talked to two fellows at the engine booth who were with the engine plant at Waterloo. I asked them what oil they would recommend using in a 4320 engine and they said series 3 15W-40 diesel oil. They said if it had been available back in the 60's that's what they would have used back then too. They preferred this over straight 30 wt S-3. I did not ask about the older 2 cyls though.

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jdemaris

04-13-2007 18:10:29




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Jon Hagen, 04-13-2007 15:26:50  
That's not what Deere has recommended in regard to multi-viscosity polymer-based oils in diesels - unless something has recently changed. Deere Co. told us not to use such oils e.g. Deere Torq-Guard 15W-40, Rotella 15W-40, etc. in the older generation diesels. I suspect that's why Deere is focusing more on their own brand of synthetic-based diesel oil e.g. Plus 50 that does not use polymers. It's more backwards and forward compatible as far as I can tell. If you've found anything in print - from Deere that states otherwise - please lead me to it.

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Bob

04-13-2007 19:56:55




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to jdemaris, 04-13-2007 18:10:29  
Oh GOOD GRIEF!

If using the CAR multi-grade hasn't hurt it, WHY would quality diesel oil be bad for it????



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jdemaris

04-14-2007 06:57:24




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 Hey Bob, good grief to what? in reply to Bob, 04-13-2007 19:56:55  
"Good grief" as it relates to what? Or, is that a "technical reply" of some sort that I an too dumb to understand? It is likely that the question about engine oil is moot - since I doubt the tractor is worked hard anymore. So in reality it probably doesn't matter what oil is used. It was however originally intended TO be worked and I attempted to answer the question based on some known facts and past experience with Deere Co. - and doing so pretending it is a work tractor. What it posited - and I'll do so again - is . . . if there is ANY doubt whatsovever - why take a chance? That's my mindset. The guy asked the question, i.e. he does have some doubt. If you feel none of it matters - than go ahead - use what you want - I doubt anybody minds. I personally don't care what oil the guy uses - if any at all. But back to Deere - they told us, over and over - to avoid polymer-based oils when they could be avoided - in the older diesel engines - and I relayed the message. Somehow, this upsets you? By the way, one case I'll mention using your reasoning. A friend of mine back early 80s - maybe late 70s (can't remember, date doesn't matter). He bought one of the first Chevy LUV diesel 4WD trucks - with the Isuzu 2.2 diesel and beat the heck out it. He hated the truck and basically, wanted to kill it. He had the odometer over 100,000 miles and it NEVER had an oil change since new - not a single one. He just kept topping it off with the cheapest crap he could find - even put in used oil at times. When he sold the truck it still ran like a clock. So - by your reasoning - that proves that nobody ever needs to change the oil in a diesel. Can't say I've tried that approach myself.

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jdemaris

04-13-2007 14:18:05




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 Re: Castrol Tection 15W-40 oil in a JD 2 cylinder in reply to Big Davie, 04-13-2007 13:41:16  
I wouldn't use it on an older diesel - simply because - when in doubt - why take a chance? I know it is often assumed that any new-tech lubricant has to better than older stuff - but it doesn't always work that way. I doubt you will find anyone or anyplace to say with certitude that a polymer-based multi-viscosity diesel oil is suited for an old 720. When I worked for Deere - the company was quite clear it did NOT want polymer-based multi-viscostiy oils in any older diesels unless absolutey necessary for severe cold-starting. It's not supposed to be a problem with synthetic oils because they don't need the polymers to create the flexible-viscosity. I know that Detroit Diesel advises against it for all the older 2-stroke Jimmys. But like I said - I don't believe anyone is going to give you test data that proves the argument either way - including Deere Company. If it were mine - I'd be using straight-grade oil or a synthetic.

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