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building block wall

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Bryan Iowa

04-27-2007 06:25:12




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I am working on digging out my crawlspace and making a basement under my house . Not going to mess with foundation. Going to build wal 3 ft or so in from existing foundation , "Fruit ledge " is what one guy called it. I am wondering what type of footing i need , and tips on laying block. Wall will be roughly 4-5 ft tall , then slab from top of it to existing foundation .
Thanks ,




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Pooh Bear

04-27-2007 13:04:15




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 What about the center support columns in reply to Bryan Iowa , 04-27-2007 06:25:12  
I have been considering doing this same thing. I would love to have a basement under my house to use as a workshop.

My house is 30 feet wide. In the center is a beam supported by concrete block pillars. I'm not sure how to deal with these. They would need to be removed and dug down to final grade level, then a new footing poured and either new concrete block pillars or steel posts put back in place.

But what will happen when I knock down one of these pillars. I would rather not have the house collapse.

Only solution I can think of is to place supports on both sides of the current pillars to support the floor then remove the pillar and dig just that spot out to the proper depth and put in a new pillar or post. Do each pillar one at a time. Then when I have completed all of the pillars I could dig the rest of it out.

Anyone have any better ideas?

Thanks.

Pooh Bear

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Billy NY

04-27-2007 14:43:25




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 Re: What about the center support columns in reply to Pooh Bear, 04-27-2007 13:04:15  
I think you answered your own question there. You could certainly use temporary shoring, to transfer the loads from the column you want to take out, then rebuild, steel column on a footing, might save a little labor, make sure you check and coordinate the elevations, footing below new slab or isolation joint around the footing if top of footing is to be same as top of slab elevation. That certainly is quite a bit of work after the house is up, one of the reasons I always tell people to think and plan out first, because doing it later is always more work and costly. Lots of times things change after the fact, but whenever possible good to explore the possibilities prior to, because sometimes it's so much more to do it later.

With all the smaller equipment available today, something that would be safe to use in confined quarters, makes you wonder if there is a micro excavator,somehow direct the exhaust to the outside via a flex hose, and some sort of conveyor you could use to send the excavated material outside. I'd be knocking a hole in that foundation and be digging my way in, unless it were sand, cannot imagine doing it by hand, but I'll bet theres a lot of homes in this country where that was done.

That 3D model and the floor plan is a nice tool, is that a simple software to use ? Makes a nice tool for figuring things out.

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Pooh Bear

04-27-2007 20:53:13




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 Re: What about the center support columns in reply to Billy NY, 04-27-2007 14:43:25  
That was done with Broderbund 3D Home Architect Deluxe v3.0. It is a real easy program to use. I got v3.0 at Walmart for $10 about 6 years ago. You can find it online even cheaper. It is super easy to use.

I kinda figured that shoring up on both sides of a pillar was my best option. Wish I could get in there with some kind of equipment. Mine will have to be all done by hand. Probably set up some kind of ore cart system to carry the dirt out.

Wish I could have done it when the house was being built but it just wasn't in the budget.

Pooh Bear

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Billy NY

04-27-2007 21:47:16




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 Re: What about the center support columns in reply to Pooh Bear, 04-27-2007 20:53:13  
That's interesting, it's amazing how much software is out there for things like this, 3d modeling and so forth. You really have an advantage today, as you can look so much further into a project when you have these tools, also for coordinating details, that only became visible during actual construction. AutoCad had just come out when I was in college, now look what is out there, in addition to what design firms use.

That happens quite often, either budget or something overlooked, but even by hand, it will get done, hopefully you can find some labor reducing ideas.

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Billy NY

04-27-2007 12:20:23




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Bryan Iowa , 04-27-2007 06:25:12  
So within the footprint of the existing you will excavate lower than the footing that is there now ? Will you excavate lower than the existing footing to gain the depth, obviously to get some more head room than the crawl space there now ?

If that is the case then the new footing will be lower than the existing footing, condition like that usually calls for underpinning the existing footing prior to undermining it to place a new one beside it, and technically existing should be underpinned to the same elevation which is the bottom of new footing or where you stop excavating for same. If the existing footing has a lot of weight on it and you excavate all at once, hard to say what the undisturbed soil under it will react, during construction of the new wall and with the cavity you create, what will keep that soil from displacing under the existing footing ? Is the new wall going to be load bearing and are you going to transfer the load to it, or relieve some of the load on the existing by transferring it to the new or shoring up the joists of the house ? Just thinking aloud here.

As I interpret this detail you propose, you might get away with excavating and depending on the soil type, it might stay together, + if the footing is not heavily loaded, but you had best get the new footing done, 2'-0" wide x 1'-0" thick might be better, with horizontal and some vertical deformed bar (rebar) to tie into the block wall, or concrete masonry units as I call em ( C.M.U.), then get the wall up to the height of the top of the existing footing, so the annular space can be filled compacted and stabilized, could even use concrete I suppose, and although you are not supposed to have one footing close in proximity to another with one being lower then the other without underpinning it, filling that annular space would at least stabilize the existing. Footings exert displacement at 45 deg angle, so when you undermine one, it loses area to displace the loading to, concentrating more of a point load where it still is bearing on the soil, which could cause failure. Have to be careful if this is to be excavated all at once. An engineer would be good to speak with about the details of how this works. Underpinning (extending existing footing) will bring the bottom of the existing footing to the bottom of the new footing, but has to be done in sections at a time, taking a 12 foot section dividing it into (4) 3'-0" sections labeled A, B, C, D, first do A sections in each 12 foot section, then B, and so on until complete, drypack and wedge etc. Usually no more than 12 feet in one wall is allowed to be underpinned at a time. Lot of work when necessary.

I'd make sure the new wall was substantial, as the existing footing will displace weight towards it, I'd use high strength block, 3000-4000 P.S.I., certified by the block mfr., with 75% filled cells (smaller cells), vertical reinforcement 2'-0" on center, with at minimum those cells with rebar being filled with 3000 psi grout. Waterproofing, typically most materials require you to wait the 28 days for the mortar to cure, just like a poured foundation you have to wait for the concrete to cure. Could be a pain to get in that space, so do a few courses, reach down and get the drain pipe in, stone and waterproofing on before topping off. Block is labor intense, not all that hard to place, but mixing mortar can be a lot of work, do a layout, use a string line with line level, start your corners both directions, soak the footer, lay bed of mortar, butter the ends of the block with mortar, place, tap into plumb and level, strike joints while still plastic (mortar not cured, wet but stiff) and repeat. I attached a masonry accessory mfr. below, you can use truss/ladder mesh in each course to reinforce the wall further, they have flashings and lots of details to look at, good products, they set the standards for masonry accessories.

Does the slab on top sit on the new wall, and abut the existing wall? If so, you'll need to create a bearing surface for it, and the form under it on the existing wall, unless you jack to the house up to allow the slab to bear on both walls.

Don't mind me, was trying to interpret what you describe doing there, sounds like you might want to use some care and planning as to how you will do the work. Not as critical as say a large building or structure but in theory, is similar to why underpinning is done, being residential, the loads are a lot less and you can get away with a lot more, but do use care, possibly make a sketch of it in section, show both footings, walls and slab in relation to each other, show it to an engineer or some knowledgable person, not to say you have to, but not a bad idea to let another set of trained eyes take a look, might shed some light on things.

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Paul from MI

04-27-2007 11:28:15




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Bryan Iowa , 04-27-2007 06:25:12  
If you think you might have a water problem, or any possibility of one, you could over dig your floor about 4-6" and put a layer of gravel under your concrete. Run some tile under the floor to a sump with a pump. Just good insurance. Good luck, this system works good for me on an addition I built, removing an old garage floor and building over it.
Paul



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Heyseed

04-27-2007 08:19:26




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Bryan Iowa , 04-27-2007 06:25:12  
Do take the extra time now to waterproof. Put in a drain tile, extra gravel and seal the outside of the block, as well as a waterproof membrane under the slab If you think you have done enough, do more, you will be VERY sorry later if you get water in. Then it will be too late.



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Bryan in Iowa

04-27-2007 10:29:20




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Heyseed, 04-27-2007 08:19:26  
I was going to seal the wall with membrane. Will add tile too .Where should tile be located ? Outside of footing ? base of wall? Where should it run to ? Thanks



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Billy NY

04-27-2007 12:41:51




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Bryan in Iowa, 04-27-2007 10:29:20  
Preferrably outside of wall, use corrugated/ perforated foundation drainpipe, on top of footing where footing meets the wall. Pipe is covered with coarse stone, like #2 crushed, place filter fabric over the top of stone to keep fines from settling in and choking up the voids. Footing will be level, but if you can set the foundation drain pipe on a slight pitch to one end that is low, that is ok, think most are set level. You then use a Tee to send out a lateral to where you want it to drain. The foundation drain loop will fill and drain to the lateral which would be set at the lowest elevation for good drainage. You can use coarse stone to bed one side a little higher for pitch but even if level, as long as it's got a place to run to, should be fine to divert the water out. If you are boxed in, you could run the lateral to a sump pit in the basement, use a sump pump, but preferrably, you want that pipe (solid for lateral, not perforated) to penetrate the walls and drain by gravity away from the building to a drywell or daylight to where it can run off. Plan this out and put sleeves where you want to drain to, so you can run a pipe through, wall or footing if necessary so you don't have to chop it out later.

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David Snipes

04-27-2007 08:08:17




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Bryan Iowa , 04-27-2007 06:25:12  
My neighbors made a basement that way. Our water table is pretty high and they had seepage problems in the springtime due to the porosity of the blocks. They had to make a small channel around the base of the block wall which led to a sump pump. Other than that, it worked great. And they do keep fruit and vegetables on the big shelf.



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msb

04-27-2007 07:50:48




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 Re: building block wall in reply to Bryan Iowa , 04-27-2007 06:25:12  
You might want to contact your county building code department administrator. Since the fruit wall will only be supporting itself and will be well below the frost/freeze line, You won't need much of a footer. I would pour it 16" wide and a foot deep.



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