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How do water rights work?

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Sunny 4 acres

06-27-2007 23:56:36




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My neighbor who has ajoining property had his spring dry up and has found his well to be less reliable than he hoped for. Higher up the hill on my property there is springs galore. He wants to do the water rights thing. I know nothing about it. when a person buys your water rights does it pertain to just that spring? Can you channel water into a ditch to control muddy spots in the field within an x amount of space of his spring? Can the rights be made permanet or renewable? After I give him the okay he will draw up something with his lawyer to make it legal. I know nothing about this so can anyone of you fill me in with knowledge or know anything through doing this? Thanks in advance fellas!

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Jerry/MT

06-28-2007 14:37:51




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Be very careful! Water right laws vary from state to state. You are under no obligation to provide water to your neighbor BUT, if you are willing, find an attorney who specializes in water rights and retain him to assist you. If you decide you want to go ahead and provide water to your neighbor, make your neighbor include the lawyers fees into what he has to pay you to obtain the water right.

Water rights are very valuable and out here the old adage of "whiskey's for drinkin' and water is for fightin' " is certainly true.

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NawlensGator

06-28-2007 13:43:56




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  

I would advise not to do it.

I would talk to a GOOD lawyer before saying anything to this guy. Why don't you just sell him water? Public water here sells for $9 the 1st thou gallsons and about $2-$3 for each additional thou gallons.

Selling water rights is selling part of the value of your property. Maybe be worth a lot more in the future. to you and your heirs.



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low budget

06-28-2007 12:38:37




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Dont do it. He will get another unreliable water source and you will get nothing but headaches. I know, I've been on both sides of this situation.



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midwest redneck

06-28-2007 09:29:23




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Dont sign anything and dont write up anything with your neighbor. When I buiit my home and my neighbor and I had the power company set the pole and run both underground services from the pole to our homes my neighbor wanted to have only one big line go from the pole to a split near the property line and then to each home. (basically I would have had a line running off of a box that would be on his property for a few feet.) (just a possible nightmare later on) We just had our own line from the pole to our house.

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Walt Davies

06-28-2007 08:53:39




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Every state is different on water rights even counties can have different rules. If I was you I would talk to the state water board before entering into any thing that might leave you high and dry.
In Oregon water rights dry up if not used in 5 years but in Calif. they are permanent Walt



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davpal

06-28-2007 08:20:32




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Don't do it unless you are getting married to this neighbor. They could move and somebody you really don't like could move in next to you and keep the water rights. Remember no good deed goes unpunished! That is the reason we own property in rural areas so we don't have to deal with neighbors as much. Just say nada.



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georgeky

06-28-2007 07:33:42




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
I agree with John T Country Lawyer. And some of the other folks. DON'T put anything on paper with your signature on it. This can and will cause problems for you in the future. It is kinda like granting someone a right of way through your property. In most cases this becomes permanent and irreversble. If you want to let your neighbor use it some that would be fine, but I wouldn't sign anything if it were me. Good Luck.

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Matt from CT

06-28-2007 07:54:11




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to georgeky, 06-28-2007 07:33:42  
Just watch out for Adverse Possesion, too -- i.e. if you've always let your neighbors cross your land, they've established a legal right of way were none had been formally granted. The rules for that, and how to avoid it, vary from state to state.

As I understand it, developers are trying to put in decent size development in the town south of me, but one of the neighbors has a described right-of-way across the property in an way that is exceedingly inconvienent for the developers and is using it to inflict maximum pain on their plans.

IMHO, there's no way in heck I'd give or sell water rights unless there was some mutually needed -- I get a Right of Way across your land to get to mine, I'll give you water instead. I suspect a lot of the old water rights were stuff people granted because they wanted to sell some land, and they had to give water with it to make it valuable.

If it doesn't affect the rest of your property, offer to sell him the land with the springs...for an appropriate premium.

Or if you have the resources, offer to buy his land...discounted appropriately for it's lack of water.

Or offer to sell your whole property at a premium.

It's not about screwing your neighbor, it's about not screwing yourself or someone who buys your land down the road.

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jdemaris

06-28-2007 09:50:51




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 Adverse use - must be adverse in reply to Matt from CT, 06-28-2007 07:54:11  
In regard to your statement -

". . . if you've always let your neighbors cross your land, they've established a legal right of way were none had been formally granted . . "

That's not quite true - the use needs to be "adverse", thus the name. The adverse use must also be notorious - i.e. you have to know about it. If you grant permission, that abrogates their right to claim any adverse use. Now, if you tell them to stay the heck off, and they do it anyway, and you do nothing to stop them - then they DO have a case. I've been to court twice in regard to this and prevailed both times. This sort of thing never seems to end. I own some remote land now where people keep on driving through it, and I send a letter to every adjacent property owner, every 5 years granting them temporary permission to cross my land. I also mention that the permission can be revoked at any time. There are similar methods of land-use-taking such as easement by necessity, easement by proscription, etc. All a little different. Town and village governments often take land to widen roads by "easement by proscription." Bascially, all they have to do is illegally widen a road, and then let 7 years pass - and if no one makes a stink over it, it's a done deal. Happens all the time.

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georgeky

06-28-2007 09:36:29




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Matt from CT, 06-28-2007 07:54:11  
Matt, I am not sure about the law here now, but at one time all you had to do was lock everyone out at least one day per year. This would prevent a legal ROW from being established. I think now that if they use it for 7 years without being locked out it does become a permanent ROW. I am going to have trouble here over that. My MIL owns the place next to me. She sold 3 acres to her sister with no way to access it except through me. All this was done without even asking me about using my place to gain access. So far I have let them go through me to get there, my lawyer told me that if push came to shove that the sister would have to take action against the MIL, and force a ROW through her. They have spent a lot of money back there and I am going to have to close off access to it. I know there is going to be trouble over it, because my wife thinks it isn't hurting anything to let them continue to drive through me. Says I am just being contrary. She doesn't seem to understand that once the ROW is established that you can't reverse it. My worry is that they will sale their place and no telling who will move in behind me. Just last week I sat on the porch and seen another in-law who was visiting the MIL's sister throw out a McDonalds sack on me on his way out. I made him pick it up, and he informed me that it was paper and would rot. I am now considering throwing all my garbage in his front yard. I may close the gate tonight and put this big master lock on it. All this can sure be a mess.

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jdemaris

06-28-2007 12:50:52




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to georgeky, 06-28-2007 09:36:29  
I've been through similar situations. There are many issues involved and some vary, state by state. Usually, matters involving adverse taking of land or its use are controlled by State statute law. Here in New York, it takes seven years of adverse use - to create "adverse use" or an "easement by prescription."

Someone cannot just use your land and then claim adverse use - especically if you've given permission. The issue of adverse use or possession is when someone does it against your wishes, and you do nothing about it. Also, it can occur if they do any maintainance on the path or road. I've pasted two short articles at the end of this post. The best way to find out how things tend to work in your own area is to check recent case-law. With the Internet, it's easy - just do a phrase search for "easement by prescription."

Many states do not allow anyone to section off small parcels of land off a bigger parcel and not grant right-of-ways for access to public highways. For parcels where it's already been done, there are sometimes legal remedies, where a court and judge will grant access - and determine where it will be. But, some parcels are simply sold as "landlocked" and that's the end of it. I mention this because it's possible your mother-in-law may have some liability.

PRESCRIPTIVE EASEMENTS - recent case-law:
An "easement" is a right of use over property of another. A characteristic of an easement is that there exists a burdened property and a benefited property. An easement is distinguishable from a "license" which merely confirms a personal privilege for a party to do some act upon ones land. The right of private way over another's land may arise from (I) an express grant, (ii) from prescription by seven years uninterrupted use through improved lands (iii) by twenty years of use through wild lands, or (iv) by implication of law when the right is necessary to the enjoyment of lands granted by the same owner or by a compulsory purchase and sale through the Superior Court in the manner prescribed by law. This article will hereinafter address how a right of private way over the land of another may be acquired by prescription.

It is common for convenience stores and commercial properties to share common driveways, access points and rights of ingress and egress. It is common for such common driveways, access and ingress to be pursuant to a "hand shake" understanding. A review of title records and grant deeds discloses no formal express grant of an easement of ingress and egress to either party. In such cases, issues, problems and /or litigation usually arises when one party desires to alter the property lay out, develop or expand upon the property, attempt to relocate ingress or egress points or cut off the rights of the adjoining property owner to access across the property.

In the recent Georgia Supreme Court case of Keng v. Franklin, 480 S.E.2d 25 (1997) the Supreme Court confirmed and reiterated how a prescriptive easement may be established. In particular, the Supreme Court stated that prescriptive rights are to be strictly construed. That in order for prescription to occur, the prescriber must give some notice, actual or constructive, to the land owner, that he or she intends to prescribe against the owner. That whenever a private way has been in constant and uninterrupted use for seven or more years and no legal steps have been taken to abolish it, it shall not be lawful for anyone to interfere with that private way. In addition, a successful prescribe must show that the private way did not exceed twenty (20) feet in width, the use continued along the same route without shifting from one path to another, and that the prescriber kept the way open and in repair during the period of prescription. That when the use of a private way originates by permission of the owner, prescription does not begin to run until; the user notifies the owner, by repairs or otherwise, that he has changed his position from that of a mere licensee to that of a prescriber.

Pursuant to O.C.G.A. § 44-9-54, "whenever a private way has been in constant uninterrupted use for seven or more years and no legal steps have been taken to abolish it, it shall not be lawful for anyone to interfere with that private way." In the Keng case, the dispositive issue was whether the actions of the prescriber and their predecessor in title provided notice to the burdened landowner with notice of their intent to possess the driveway. In the Keng case, because there existed evidence of (I) use of the driveway continuously for more than seven years, (ii) refusal to allow its removal and repairs, (iii) it was found that an easement by prescription had arisen.

When analyzing the rights and obligations of parties in ingress/egress situations, it is important to distinguish prescriptive easements from what many recognize as adverse possession. In the case of private ways, the use may originate in permission, and may ripen by prescription. Adverse possession cannot arise out of permissive use. For adverse possession to occur there must be proof of non-permissive use which is actual, open, notorious, exclusive and adverse for the required statutory period, depending on the nature of the rights to be acquired by adverse possession and whether such adverse possession is under "color of title". The prescription or adverse possession will not run against a state or its political subdivisions. As discussed in the Keng case, in the prescription easement case, it is required that the use be continued along the same route without shifting from one path to another, and that the use may originate by permission but the seven year period does not begin to run until actual or constructive notice is provided to the owner by repairs or otherwise, that the use is claimed adversely against the owner.


ADVERSE POSSESSION AND YOUR PROPERTY
As a licensed Realtor I continue to marvel at how little understanding most property owners have of how to protect their property rights from what may seem to be an insignificant situation. For example, the neighbors up north , have been walking across your land to get to your semi-private lake, to swim, picnic and fish. Things go well for years, and you never say it’s ok or not ok, but then one day, you decide that you don’t want them to do this anymore.

You let them know that they can’t cross your land anymore nor use your shoreline. You even erect a fence, to stop their crossing your land. Your neighbors tell you to take down the fence and that they want to continue to use the lake. You refuse and your neighbors take you to court. When the judge rules that you must take down the fence and you must allow your meighbors to not only cross your land, but they may also use your lake frontage as they did for years.

Your neighbors have just won rights to you property, due to adverse possession. Adverse possession and prescriptive easements can occur when someone uses your property in an open and hostile manner. If this continues for a number of years, you can loose your right to stop them and even anyone that may buy your neighbors’ property and want to use yours in the same way.

To protect yourself, periodically walk your property and keep an eye out for people having entered or used your property. Ask neighbors if they have noticed anyone using your property. If you find that someone is using your property either take necessary steps to stop their use or give them permission to use your property. Giving permission constitutes “giving license” to use your property. You may take back your permissiom should so choose to do. Giving permission stops the adverse possession or adverse easement.


A right to use property, acquired by a long tradition of open and obvious use. For example, if hikers have been using a trail through your backyard for ten years and you've never complained, they probably have an easement by prescription through your yard to the trail.

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georgeky

06-28-2007 17:00:29




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to jdemaris, 06-28-2007 12:50:52  
Thanks for the info. I take it that if I give them permission to use it in writing, signed by both parties, that they can not claim an easement through my property. Either way, I am going to nip this in the bud ( as Barney Fiffe would say).



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Matt from CT

06-28-2007 18:03:41




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to georgeky, 06-28-2007 17:00:29  
Well, did some interesting reading tonite including stuff from the General Assembly's research office, and a law firm newsletter.

Like any of this, get a real lawyer since the laws are complicated at the case law since so much is based on common law and varies state-to-state.

In CT it takes 15 years, and specfically requires "exclusive" use -- they use it and you don't. The notice required to stop it has be served like legal process, and filed with the Town Clerk.

Way I read it, if you let a neighbor use a lane across your farm to access their fields, and you use the same lane you're safe. But if the only person to use that lane ever is the neighbor and not you, it could be at risk for adverse possesion.

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georgeky

06-28-2007 21:06:08




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Matt from CT, 06-28-2007 18:03:41  
Matt, my lawyer told me that they would have to force an easement through the MIL, since she had sold part of her place to them. The worst thing is, they are the best neighbors I have. I do not want to loose my strip of land to an easement though.



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HENRY E NC

06-28-2007 07:32:54




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
We live in a community that has a well and cerain people have it deeded in. We have had some problems with those people not wanting to help pay for the well upkeep etc. MY ADVICE TO YOU IS AS OTHERS HAVE SAID, GET YOUR OWN LAWYER. Lawyers represent whoever is paying them and will not be on your side unless he represents you. Also,why not sell him water on a yearly basis instead of granting him water rights. WQe sell water from our well to 14 homes(8 well owners) to cover the cost of operation and build a fund to replace the well if it goes dry.

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jdemaris

06-28-2007 06:05:38




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Perpetual water rights are very common here in New York. Many of the first village settlements, usually in valleys, piped water from the nearby hilltop springs. Many such rights were deeded in the late 1700s and are still legally binding. The legal right is . . . basically, whatever is written and must be specific. Usually such things as compensation involved, time frame - e.g. one year, ten years, forever, etc., carry over - i.e. are the rights to be carried over to all heirs and assigns forever - or to just the present owner?, actual location of the water source, rights to maintain and repair, amount of water allowed to be taken (rated by size of pipe or gallons), who gets priority water when one source is share by mulitiple uses, etc. I've found that very often these rights are not carried over to modern "abreviated" deeds. The rights still exist, but you often have to do a deed-search and go back and find the original text. One example - an old farm house and barn I own. Deed written 1880 - gives rights to my property to draw water from a max. size of 3/4" pipe. Gives the actual location of the water source - a mountainside spring on some other property. Also gives me the right to maintain fully, but not improve. Also gives right to another property owner to use a max. of a 1/2" pipe that draws water at a point 6" above mine - so when water gets low, I get priority. One exception is modern laws and regs. that might conflict. I own a 1700s millsite that used to have a large millpond and dam. I have deeded rights to repair the dam - but I cannot do so legally because of many other, more modern legal issues. I also have deeded rights to mine gravel out of a local trout stream - but again - due to modern restrictions, I cannot.

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John T Country Lawyer

06-28-2007 05:20:11




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Sunny, I practice law here in Indiana where we dont get into Riparian law like they do out West so Im NOT familiar with it whatsoever. HOWEVER I am familiar enough with it that my first free legal advice would be DONT DO IT. You have no moral or legal obligation whatsoever to sell you neighbor any rights on your land notwithstanding some sort of an easement of necessity which a Court might order. Second best free advice is to consult your own local attorney WHO PRACTICES RIPARIAN LAW. If the water table or springs go sour to the point theres not enough water for you both, Im afraid this "agreement" you may enter into would prevent you from taking anything back.

Best wishes

John T in Indiana Attorney at Law

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Dave 2N

06-28-2007 05:09:45




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
Seems to me that the best thing for both you and your neighbor is for your neighbor to have his well re-drilled or for him to have an entirely new well drilled. Expensive, I know, but I wouldn't get into any "water rights" thing with him at all. And--reading between the lines of your post: are you giving us ALL of the information about this situation??



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Oldmax

06-28-2007 05:06:03




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
I wouldn"t want to go there . UNDER NO CONDITIONS GIVE AWAY OR SELL YOUR WATER RIGHTS

Be carefull what you do my brother-n-law lived in CO Had to pay fof rights to drill well on his place I think it was $1000 the cattle could drink from the stream that ran through but he couldn"t use waterfrom stream like to water garden or anything . One of the neigbors cought rain water in 55 GAL drums they fined then $500 a drum for that , So watch what you do . "Under no conditions give away or Sell your Water rights". you might give them the right to use Water from a certan place on farm Make it a contract like a Renting water usage for a given time. at the end of that time they would have to sign a new rental agrement . But you would have the right to cancel if you want to at end of contract .

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buickanddeere

06-28-2007 06:53:29




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Oldmax, 06-28-2007 05:06:03  
The neighbour caught rain water from his roof and he was fined?



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Chad Franke

06-28-2007 13:59:20




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to buickanddeere, 06-28-2007 06:53:29  
Colorado water law is some of the most complex and crazy in the country...No water flows into the state, it only flows out (except for about 11 miles of a river in the NW corner of the state) so we have some unique laws.

Main doctrine is first in use, first in right. If you can prove your right was used first, you have the most right to that water, with some claims going back into the 1800's. Most houses weren't there then, therefore the water that falls on that house at one time fell and ran someplace (either underground or in streams) and was used. Therefore, that water has a prior user, if you catch and use it, you are stealing someone's water. In the middle of a big drought (might finally be ending now, knock on wood) all water is precious, and water laws are enforced vigorously.

Thousands of acres of irrigated land are dried up because wells have been shut down because the court determined the underground water pumping is harming holders of more senior surface water rights. Every drop of water that falls in Colorado is already accounted for, there are no "new" rights. Even domestic wells are getting tough to get, most times requiring 40 acres of surface area to get a domestic well.

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georgeky

06-28-2007 07:40:54




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to buickanddeere, 06-28-2007 06:53:29  
I do not understand this at all. Lots of folks including myself here in KY have cisterns and catch rain water from homes,barns and any other building they wish. What kind of BS is this that say's you can't catch something falling from the sky that man has no domain over. Things in this country are fast becoming more of a dictatorial type government. The tea party is looking better all the time.



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Matt from CT

06-28-2007 07:07:46




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to buickanddeere, 06-28-2007 06:53:29  
More specifically, got caught storing it in a barrel:

>In most areas of Colorado, the only sure legal >way to use rainwater is to direct roof gutter >downspouts to drain to landscape areas you wish >to water.



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gene bender

06-28-2007 04:44:46




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
You better see a GOOD laywer first even before you talk to the neighbor as these things are very important. Your neighbor should have his own well for his own protection when and if he ever wants to sell. What kind of a cheap person who would want to get water from you instead of providing his own you have to look down the road to the future.



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mjbrown

06-28-2007 03:18:22




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 Re: How do water rights work? in reply to Sunny 4 acres, 06-27-2007 23:56:36  
If he is having "something drawn up by his lawyer" you absolutely need to have your lawyer review it and inform you of all the possible ramifications of this arrangement that can bite you it the butt. See a goood lawyer.



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