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How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond?

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Mark

03-12-2003 09:56:54




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How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? I know my little Oliver HG just ain't going to cut it. My pond would be in my bottom land which has a sedimentary type soil with a solid sheet of clay about 5 ft down. I was talking to a guy whose friend put one in with a Ford 8n and a rear scoop. I do not not have that much time!!!!

I was looking for a 50 x 100 pond approx 10-12 ft deep.




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Eric

03-24-2003 20:03:02




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
A couple of years ago I dug out a pond approx. 50 by 50 with an old D-4 Cat. Real shallow swamp, dry year, clay soil underneath. 8 to 10 feet deep. Took about 3 days, first major bull dozing project I ever did. I made a dam that brought the water level up about a foot.

D-4 is small enough to not get stuck in soft areas, big enough to push dirt. Really scared myself a couple of times, but it crawled out of some real ooze. D-6 would be a good choice, D-8's are too heavy.

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Robert in W. Mi

03-14-2003 06:23:16




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
third party image

Years ago i dug this one with an dragline crane we use to have. Actually, i have 3 bigger ponds on my place, and all were dug with a dragline. There's no way you can doze a pond out here. It's much too soft, and too many springs in the ponds! Robert

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src

03-14-2003 06:22:22




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
I once bought an Oliver OC-4 Diesel crawler that
the previous owner had used to dig a pond with.
It was equiped with an Anderson 6 ft. straight
blade. The pond was about a half an acre in size,
and about 6-8 ft. deep in the middle. I was very
impressed that he was able to do it with a tractor of that size. The biggest problem was that it pretty much wore the tractor out doing it.

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Larry

03-13-2003 18:54:42




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
It all depends on how much time you want to spend. I used my TD 15 track loader to build a 450 foot long dam for a pond that ended up being about 11 feet deep and only spent about 45 hours playing with it. That was my first project with the machine so I was a total novice with it. The design should not be a big concern as you indicated you are in bottom land which I assume will not have a steep slope to it. Probably going to be more of a pit type pond than damming off a ditch. The larger the machine the quicker but the more costly. Anything 100 hp on up should work fine. Good luck and have fun!!!!

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pete

03-13-2003 17:20:14




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
easyboy is right. a D-11 will do the job but cost more money to have it hauled to the job than it would to dig the pond.



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farmer jones

03-13-2003 15:26:29




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
We build pond (lakes) for a living. You had better get an expert from your area, or you will end up with an expensive education and a mud hole as well as a divorce if you are married. The size of the machine is one of the least of your worries. There is a lot more to a pond than digging a hole and hoping it fills and doesn't leak but good luck with what ever you decide.



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ShepFL

03-13-2003 13:52:31




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
third party image

I hired an experienced operator with I think a D6 dig a ~2 acre pond 8 yrs. ago. Shallow end 4', deep end 12'. Banks on a 4/12 pitch. Clay bottom and clay lined banks. Cost was $2k. Hourly rate of $50/hr for five 8 hr. days. Impressive operator and machine.

Wanting to enlarge it this summer. He now offers track-hoe and dozer services combined for a blended rate of $85/hr.

Make sure if hired or DIY you push top soil to an area that can be re-claimed after the other other dirt is pushed out. I built a 300 yd. rifle range with all the extra clay.

FWIW

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Dan

03-13-2003 17:40:46




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 Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to ShepFL, 03-13-2003 13:52:31  
Really looks like you have a nice place



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ShepFL - thanks Dan!

03-21-2003 23:25:58




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 Re: Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Dan , 03-13-2003 17:40:46  
for the kind words.

Been lots of sweat equity poured into this place. Probably never be able to reclaim it all but is home and it quiet.

Regards,
ShepFL



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Kirk

03-13-2003 05:54:11




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
I had an experienced operator dig a 50x75 6 foot deep Wildlife Pond. This guy was good and got it done in 3 1/2 hours with a D-6. This was in heavy clay and all material removed was leveled to make banks on both sides. Cost was $600 eight years ago.



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easyboy

03-13-2003 04:46:44




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
a cat d 11 would probaly do the job you want



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clark

03-12-2003 21:17:26




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
you can build it with a cat D-6 or JD -450 or a IH TD-8. I dont think you realize how many yards of dirt you will be moveing.. about 50.000 yards ( Est) and remember if you get a dozer stuck in the mud it takes 2 dozer's the same size as the one stuck to pull it out.. most pond digging now days is done by big excavators(trackhoe's) I built a 1 acer pond years ago with a cat D-8. it was a minumum of 8' and a maximum of 12' it took me 2 full months 8 hours a day and yes i got stuck! somewhat lucky it had a winch.. hooked the cable to a pinoak about30" in diameter right at the ground about 100' away.. pulled so hard the next think i new i had a 70' tall oak coming at me.. it took a 450 JD and IH TD-8 and the winch hooked to another tree to get it out.It can get more costly than buying a dozer.. its best left to the experts.

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Kurt

03-13-2003 16:46:40




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 Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to clark, 03-12-2003 21:17:26  
A guy I bought property from 5 years ago had a 75 acre lake dug, yep 75 acres, in central Mi. It took the excavator 2 years to dig it out. I have never seen it but I have been told that it is incredible. Kind of like a ski lodge.



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Deas Plant

03-13-2003 11:48:54




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 Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to clark, 03-12-2003 21:17:26  
Hi, Mark. You can dig any size pond you like with pretty much any size machine you like within the three main constraints of the amount of time you have, the amount of money you have and the pond being big enough for the machine you choose to work in it.

In my humble estimation, excavators are a last resort for digging ponds as it seems to me that about one in a hundred excavator operators knows anything about, or shows any interest in, using sub-soil clay that will seal and hold water to 'clay up' the areas above the clay line so that the pond doesn't leak. Most excavator operators seem to have a mind-set that they have to dig a hole and that is it. Also an excavator is not a good machine for digging a pond because it doesn't travel up and down the banks to compact the material placed there.

As to volume of material, Dave Grubb is right when he says you can't work it out unless you also have the slope details. However, based on water level at 100x50 feet and 1 in 3 batters, you would finish up with around 630 cubic yards storage capacity. And, unless you go steeper than 1 in 3 batters, you won't get beyond about 7 feet deep with a 'dozer. That will leave you a bottom around 8 feet wide by 58 feet long. Batters much steeper than 1 in 3 are too steep if you are planning on having stock water from it and make it awful hard work for a 'dozer to push material up too. As to a machine that will work in a dam with an 8 foot wide bottom, any machine with a blade of 8 feet wide or less. Believe it or not, if you change the pond size to 80x65, you would be able to get 9 feet deep or slightly more and the water level volume would go up to around 740 cubic yards. The steeper the slope you are building your pond on, the less of this amount you will actually have to excavate but also the less material you will have to make your bank.

The deeper you can dig your pond, the more usable water storage you will have. Evaporation will take as much as, if not more than, you will get to use. The average evaporation figure over all of Australia is around 6 feet per year. I have no figures for the U.S. but I would not think they would be a whole lot less on average because wind takes at least as much in evaporation as the sun does. Just look at the difference in drying time for clothes on a clothes line on a windy day and a still day.

Bear in mind that the steeper the slope you are building this pond on the more material it is going to take to get the bank up above the in-flow level because you are starting from further below that level in the first place. Also, the steeper the slope the greater the difference will between your ground set-out size and your water level storage area size with the water level storage area being the bigger.

Hope this helps.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Hayman

03-13-2003 18:18:22




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 Re: Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Deas Plant, 03-13-2003 11:48:54  
Great interesting advice,folks.



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Polish Mike

03-13-2003 05:26:45




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 Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to clark, 03-12-2003 21:17:26  
I hate to be a stickler for detail, but 50'wide X 100'long X 12'deep = 60,000 cubic FEET, divided by 27 equals 2222 cubic YARDS..... .....Still a lot of dirt.



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Dave Grubb

03-13-2003 05:54:25




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 Re: Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Polish Mike, 03-13-2003 05:26:45  
Not to be a stickler--but that is with straight sides---they really don't work very well--unless it is concrete ;)

The fact of the matter is there isn't enough information here to calculate the yardage since you have no idea of the cut/fill balance.



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swms301

03-13-2003 17:22:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Dave Grubb, 03-13-2003 05:54:25  
I think his point was that it's not going to be 50,000 cy like someone said earlier.

Also you need to check about various permit requirements you might find out you are bound by. Permit people do not believe in the "... better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission..." saying.



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Eric

03-24-2003 20:16:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to swms301, 03-13-2003 17:22:00  
Here in Minnesota I did alot of phone calls to various agencies. DNR, county, etc. Everybody passed the buck to someone else. Finally talked to someone who said as long as the pond is more than 1/2 a mile away from public water, no permit needed. And no more than 100 by 100 feet of spoil in wetlands. Lots of little ponds being dug in the area, some legal, some not. One heavy equipment operator I know made his own pond next to the highway about 300 feet from a river. After the pond was dug the officials told him not to do it again, pond is still there after 2 years.

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JWH

03-12-2003 19:32:03




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
Where is the soil going that is removed from the pond area? Is the soil removed going to become the banks of the pond? How fast will this fill with water once you start going down. How far down is the water table? I've dug a hole with a dozer, come back the next morning and had the hole full even to the rim with crystal clear water. Almost had a worker step into the water before he saw the reflection on the surface. It doesn't take long to fill with water once you start going down sometimes. It may be faster and cheaper to use both a dozer and excavator. You need to think about how far the soil will be moved. What goes out of the hole can add up fast, and needs to be moved even further than you may realize at first. You may need something with long wide tracks so it doesn't sink on you. I used a case 1150 LPG. 38,000# dozer. It's still hard work sometimes when you get down in the clay. You can get stuck awfully easy if you take too big a bite at once. I keep an excavator around to do the deep wet work, use the dozer to push it out of the way on higher ground. What's under the clay? More clay, sand, limestone, other rock? Might be cheaper and quicker to hire out rather than buy a big dozer. Probably a cat D8 or equivalent if you plan to buy big. Can be done with a D4 7U, or even a little D2, but will take quite awhile either way. How fast are you needing to work? Bigger is faster, Smaller is more affordable (and sometimes more fun).
Track width and length will be the issue if it's too soft. Ask on the ACMOC.org board. Plenty of people there who have done what you are talking about (with pictures). They will be happy to offer advice. Good reason to post pictures and show off the past projects.

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Dave Grubb

03-12-2003 11:27:07




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 Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Mark, 03-12-2003 09:56:54  
Do yourself a favor and forget about buying a dozer if your justification is a little pond (BTW I hope the 50X100 is at the bottom of that 12')--pick up the yellow pages. If you really want to do it yourself rent one, other wise get someone that knows how to build a dam, there are far more ways to do it wrong than correctly.



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Kelly

03-12-2003 22:38:48




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 Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Dave Grubb, 03-12-2003 11:27:07  
The best, would let someone that is in the dirt business do it for you, call around and get a few bids----after that, you my decide you don’t need a pond after all. But at any rate let someone do the work for you. You will no doubt need a permit, and some engineering work done by some firm to satisfy the state and or county in which you live that it will be safe, and not wash out over time and cause a lot of down stream damage to property of others, all this has to be figured in. So let someone who has the equipment and experiences in the field look into it.

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wvbill

03-13-2003 11:26:56




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 Re: Re: Re: How big a dozer do I need to carve out a pond? in reply to Kelly, 03-12-2003 22:38:48  
if your state has a soil conservation service,they may help with planning and even money. check them out..



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