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How would you turn a swamp into a pond?

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Curious in SC

04-06-2003 18:17:16

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I am looking at a parcel of land that has a spring fed swampy area roughly 50 yards wide by 300 yards long and only 1-2 feet deep at the deepest parts. The land is bottoms and runs parallel to a large creek with about 100 feet of good solid dry land between the swamp and the creek. Enough room to get a hoe in and work I think. Is it feasible to think that I could have part of this dug out with a large hoe to turn into a pond? Is that the best way to do it? What are some other options? I do not oppose keeping it the way it is, but I would like to have at least a small part to put some fish in. By the way, there is a very small earth dam at the low end that drains into the large creek.
Fairly steady flow and we are in a 5 year drought.

Thank for the advice.
David

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frank

09-27-2003 14:48:09

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I have done the same thing! I will send a pic later! Done with a hoe in two days! Frank

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Curious in SC

04-09-2003 17:24:33

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Gosh, I never hoped for so much free advice; and all of it good at that! I have already contacted the NRCS and they basically told me that they do not have the resources ($ and people) to manage this and they also said there exists no map showing all "wetlands". They also told me the qualifications of a wetland and I do not believe this land has many, if any. It is merely a low spot that has a spring. One can see where someone dug a drain to keep it dry years ago. Maybe back in the 1930's when it was last farmed. Anyhow, I just want to take a small amount of it and dig it deep enough that a catfish or ole filthy carp might could exist. Give my kids something to catch as they grow up instead of tadpoles. Don't let me offend anyone - tadpoles are fun, but not much of a fight if you can find a way to hook 'em. But hey, keep the input coming. I'm enjoying every bit of it.

Thanks alot.
David

Oh, by the way, how would you dig it out on a budget? Someone mentioned a dragline. I was thinking more in the 2 zero range instead of the 4 zero price range. I am sure that is the best way though! What about the mini trackhoes? Will they get around in soft, damp areas or do they go straight south? Or maybe a skidsteer on tracks?

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farmer jones

04-10-2003 18:49:22

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-09-2003 17:24:33

GREAT you did the right thing. I may not agree completely but that doesn't matter a bit. I would suggest that while you remember record the time and date and place and the name of who you talked to and what you think they told you. It may come in very handy and save a lot of problems sometime in the future. I hope your tadpoles grow as big as catfish and your catfish as big as whales. Good Luck.

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JD in da UP

04-10-2003 13:08:36

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-09-2003 17:24:33

Look for someone local witha little old drag line. That would have to be cheaper than anybody else. How far can a little track hoe reach? 10 or 12 feet out? You have to keep on fairly dry and solid ground so you're not stuck all the time.

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sure, its your land....

04-09-2003 13:42:15

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I'm all about being left alone on my farm, but people need to use some sence. Just because you own a piece of land for your adult lifespan (30-40 years) or however long doesn't mean that you should be blesssed with the right to ruin it forever. Now I'm not saying that building a pond is going to ruin land... Hear me out. I'm making a different point. One good example of what I'm saying is Louisiana, which is full of ruined land that had chemicals dumped on it by someone doing what they wanted with "their own land". The chemical company or whoever may have paid the lanowner in 1959 some great amount of money (probably like $250.00!) to let him put the stuff there. The landowner, the company, and the $250.00 may be long gone, but the chemicals are still there, and the land is ruined forever (or until the Army Corps of Engineers comes and cleans it up - to the tune of millions of dollars). Similar situation on my farm. A previous landowner took the money to let an oil company put a salt water injection well here. Ruined the fresh water table, but he was doing what he wanted with "his own land", and probably got some huge sum that he could blow on whatever... like a brand new 1963 Chevy pickup that has since been melted down and turned into boat anchors or something. The problem is that that previous owner is long long gone, but the water is still ruined. Just my 2 cents...

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KC Bob

04-08-2003 13:26:03

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I have two ponds now and three more to go. I am damning up draws between CRP ground that I have. They will be about 4ac each. The state pays me to build them then stocks them with fish at no cost. If I run live stock I must finch them off. This dose not give anybody the right to come on my farm. I got that in writhing before I built the first one. So call your county agent he will help you with this. They will do the survey and set the specifications for the dam and it will be right. You can hire it done and they will pay for most of it. Once you get them in on the crime you can sleep good at night. Try it you will like it. Bob

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Ray

04-08-2003 09:41:04

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Wow - great responses, the full range from A to Z. Hate to admit it in this company but I was in the biz of delineating wetlands a few years ago. Federal wetland regulation falls under Sect. 404 of the Clean Water Act. It seems that water flowing through wetlands comes out cleaner than when it entered. The purpose of wetland regulation is to prevent the degredation of water quality to us, the American public. Seems like a good idea to me - unfortunately the bureaucrats enforcing the regulations can be reasonable and helpful or they can be power hungry zealots. Like this forum, they run the whole range of personality types. In undeveloped rural areas, protection of wetlands may seem irrelevant, however the more farming, logging and development that occurs, the more we all need wetlands to filter out all the fertilizers, pesticides, sediment, oil and grease, so that we have some clean water to drink at the end of the day. Like others have said, just my 2 cents. You might want to check with your Resource Conservation District if you have one in your area. They can advise you of the permits, etc., and even of funding if it is appropriate. Good luck

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clark

04-08-2003 06:44:59

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I dont have the time to read all the post about this subject, here is my 2cents worth. its your property, do what you want when you want and how you want. sounds like a perfect sopt for a nice pond. remember your pond has to be a minimunm of 8 ft deep all over so that the swamp weeds wont grow. this means that you should dig some test holes to see what is at that debth. to hold water you need good hard clay. under the hardpan clay is useually sand or soft clay. if water comes up thru the bottom then useually thats ok.

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Wayne

04-07-2003 23:28:57

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Everybody tells tells all the stories of how so and so had a run in with the Army Corp of engineers, or whatever government officials over what they wanted to do on their own property. Who gives them the right to decide what might be wetlands and what isn't..... is the puddle I left against the tree a wetland if it has a particular insect buzzing around it---- do I have to stand there drinking glass after glass of water to maintain it if there is ????? In the end it's the people who give the government it's rights and not vice-a-versa, no matter what they would have us to believe..... Still in the end it seems like the little guy always looses out to the BIG GOVERNMENT....whatever happened to "Government, of the people, by the people, for the people"????? ? The biggest problem with this whole country is that the little guy doesn't have the money to stand up for his rights against the government that is supposed to be his because they already take their 1/3 off the top. Like one guy here said if it doesn't bother anybody elses property, then what gives anybody else the right to tell you what you can or can't do on your own property????? If EVERYBODY would stand up for their rights then there is NOTHING the government could do to them... that's the principle this whole country was founded on, freedom from an oppressive government that wants to control everybodys life..... If everybody stood up voiced their opinion, and excercised their rights as one instead of as individuals imagine the effect it would have.... Can you imagine the government trying to put 50 thousand or so good ole American farmers and country boys in prision just because they decided to do something as astonishingly dastardly and unlawful as building a pond on their own land..... In the end it's kind of like this when it comes to government fines and the like....I know it's a stretch,a totaly different situation, but it showes one mans triumph over the system because he was willing to give up "everything" for what he believed...
A guy I once knew was told by the judge he would send him to jail if he didn't pay alimony to his ex who had cheated on and divorced him...the guy was living hand to mouth working two jobs to survive while the wife was shacked up with a rich SOB...He told the judge to go ahead, then he would be guaranted 3 squares a day, would have a roof over his head, and the BIT-- still wouldn't get a dime..... The judge just threw up his hands because he didn't have anything left to threaten with..... He wound up reducing the payment and letting the guy walk out because he (the judge) really had no other choice. This guy was willing to give up everything for what he believed... you can't bring a man like that down..... IF WE WANT TO KEEP THIS COUNTRY FREE FOR OURSELVES AND OUR KIDS, WE HAVE TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT HOW THE GOVERNMENT FEELS ABOUT EVERYTHING WE DO IN OUR OWN PRIVATE LIFE ON OUR OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY AND STAND UP FOR OUR RIGHTS...WE TELL THE GOVERNMENT WHAT TO DO AND THINK, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND..... .
Like one other post said though, that's just my opinion....I'd love to hear all the responses.....

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thurlow

04-08-2003 10:12:25

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Wayne, 04-07-2003 23:28:57

Philosophically, I pretty much agree with everything you've written; pragmatically, I wonder how many of us have the "guts" to do as you suggest. If you've 'nothing left to lose', decision might..... MIGHT be easier. Much of the Federalist Papers is concerned with just your thoughts; fear of a central government out of control..... ..any answers??? not from me..... ...

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Dave in Upper Michigan

04-07-2003 20:26:17

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I would definately check with what your laws are in your area : county state etc. I wouldn't worry so much about the little fine they can hit you with, I would worry if you had to restore the land to its original state. I know who Jim in Michigan is referring to, the guy had done a great job with his land. I had heard that this guy was contracted by the Michigan DNR to straighten out a sewage system that the DNR couldn't make work properly. He knew what he was doing and the system is working properly. I think that is what got the whole thing moving, now he is on the run. I am no expert and don't claim to be one however I think its worth while to check into before going further. You and I pay taxes and they seem to be getting higher, ti almost doesn't seem we own the land. The "officials" tell us what we can and can't do with "our" their land. Well for now we have to follow their rules or we may be on the run also. I hate to discourage you from the project. GOOD LUCK!
Dave in Upper Michigan

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boom boom

04-07-2003 19:10:17

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Dynamite

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fasteddy

04-07-2003 16:04:03

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Believe what J Turrisi said, I got into sim situation here in ny. Army corps in buffalo ny like to call the shots.99 times out of 100 they won't bother, but just that 1 can kill your life savings. Good luck!!!!!

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Jim in Michigan

04-07-2003 14:17:00

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

There was a guy here who had some swampy wet lands on his property., so he figured he could improve it and make it better for the widelife,, well now he is on the run with a 25 year prison sentence and 5.7 million dollars in restitution waiting here for him,, Better check with the local DNR befor you do anyting,,,Jim

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farmer jones

04-07-2003 14:02:36

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

You should consider the comments here as what they are only one persons opinion. You better check with the experts I am not one, but have read some of the rules and been to seminars on wet lands. The so called 250 dollar fine would be a drop in the bucket to the cost of restoring the wet land to the condition as is now. Also a pond may be wet but it is not a wetland so digging at all could destory the wet land, also where are you go to put what you dig any filling would not be allowed. I or you may not agree with the law but that does not change the law. As this "pond" topic comes up on this site quite often soon those in charge (the u.s. corp of enginerrs) may follow these links with more than just opinions.

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dangc78

04-07-2003 09:47:20

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I am about to do the same thing. A few years a go some beavers built a dam and flooded out a large area of low lying land, basically turning it into a swamp like what you have. (loads of underlying brush and vegetation. Last year i bought some aquacide (aquacide.com) to test the products results. It causes oxygen depletion thereby starving the plants and they dissolve and wash away. Very important not to do the whole area at once! It turned the test area into what looked like a freshwater beach 18 inches deep. This year i plan to do a quarter more of area and start dumping small stones in it. THe state stocks this area every year with 10-12 inch trout so in a few years i will have my very own trout pond....Damn those beavers!!! If your happy with the shallow depth i would try this product first.

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Rob J

04-07-2003 07:36:39

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Some interesting replies. I don't think a 50x300 bog qualifies as a wet land. Unbelieveable! I guess the wet spots I make when peeing outside are considered "wet lands". ;)

To answer your question using some plain common cents($$) and assuming you may be tring to do this yourself...I would first see if I could dry the place. Divert the trickle around the area so you can have a dry place to get in a small dozer or hoe in. Then work from there.

You may also consider the location. If it's in a bottom is that bottom subject to flooding, etc. Even if your in a drought you may not be someday. Plus being a bottom it may never dry out and be able to support heavy equipment.

Good Luck,
Rob

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Pete/ME

04-07-2003 03:36:46

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

I'll go with Wayne about your own land. The only exception would be if it somehow messes up something your neighbor has going: (ie. damning up a creek he uses for watering stock). My place is pretty much in the woods, and I just go and do whatever I want...don't bother anybody. Just fyi, my neighbor buried a big excavator digging a pond. Came back in the AM and the water was half-way up the cab...dragline sounds like a good idea.

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Wayne

04-06-2003 22:19:04

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Most every reply says something about the legality of making a pond. Personally I believe being able to do what you want on your own land is a basic right as a US citizen. In my opinion the government tries to stick it's nose in too many places where it's neither needed or wanted. Recently a customer of ours went to build a pond for a guy and was told by a "official" that he needed all the right paperwork and approvals before he did the job or face a fine. If I remember what he told us, the process was several weeks to go through and by the time all the permits, etc were paid for was like $500. When he asked about the fine it was like $250....Needless to say he told them to give him to me to finish the job and to just go ahead and write him the fine and he would gladly pay it.... Government in action... it's all about the money and the control..... Nobody is supposed to think or do on their own... some poor endangered breed of mosquito might be killed...LOL In answer to your question, the best machine to use for what you want to do is a small dragline. It will have alot more reach and capacity for the job than any excavator of comparable size. Also, like one of the posts says, you need to have somebody that knows what they are doing as building a pond is more than just digging a hole... You don't say where in SC you are. I'm in the Charlotte NC area. If you want to e-mail me I should be able to get you the name of at least one guy with a dragline that specializes in doing things like this.

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Tim(nj)

04-07-2003 19:37:51

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Wayne, 04-06-2003 22:19:04

Fines vary by state. So do permit costs. Somebody in southern New Jersey was recently fined $20,000 and made to restore some pine tree/rhododendron forest that he bulldozed without permission. His name is on the deed, yes, but the land is in the Pinelands management area. The Pinelands Commission has a say in anything that will alter the natural state of the Pine Barren ecosystem.

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JD in da UP

04-06-2003 19:25:28

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

Start with a county official, local ag agent, these people know your area and which hoops you need to jump through first. Notice the post said a small pond in part of this area. You wouldn't be destroying wet land by building a pond. Ponds by their very nature are wetlands. Stress that it is for use by migrating waterfowl and other wildlife. Couldn't hurt. 2 cents

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dave

04-06-2003 18:22:10

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Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to Curious in SC, 04-06-2003 18:17:16

These wetlands are one of our most valuable resources and it would be a shame to destroy.You can always find water to fish in but it is almost impossible to create what you already have. dave

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John A.

04-07-2003 17:25:51

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to dave, 04-06-2003 18:22:10

Hay! Curious, I usually haunt the IH forum, but saw this heading and thought I would weigh in. If this spot has a "wetland " classification you are stuck, You can't do anything with it! But if it doesn't have this classification, Then Fire the Cats up, and get to pushing soil. It's your property, you pay the taxes on it, Do as you Damn well please! as long it is within reason. No toxic waste dump or something like that. But get a pro to do it. Probably need to wait till the driest time of the year for your part of the country. So excess water won't be a factor in building the tank dam. TAKE NO GOVERNMENT MONEY!!!
In building this project, so they have no say so in your deal! This is our thoughts here in central Texas.
Good Luck.
John A.

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Joseph Turrisi

04-06-2003 19:08:23

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to dave, 04-06-2003 18:22:10

You might want to leave it alone as wet lands are controled buy the Army Core of Engineers. It is enfact illegel to drain or desturb them with out appovel from them. If you were to this and got caught they would make you rebuild the area. Because of the cost of this plus the BIG BIG fine you would get it would not be worth it. However to answer your question a track hoe would be the best way to do this. I suggest you hire some one who does this for a living to do it for you as you would be better of in the long run. There is more to building a pond than digging a hole and filling it with water

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hillbillie

04-06-2003 18:31:35

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Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to dave, 04-06-2003 18:22:10

tree hugger

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CTinCT

04-07-2003 16:01:04

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Re: Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to hillbillie, 04-06-2003 18:31:35

I don't know where you guys are, but where I live THERE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ANY WATER to be wetlands!! They go by the plants or something. We have unusable land that is nowhere near a lake,pond,ect...It's called government out of control.

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BUT IT IS STILL THE LAW

04-07-2003 17:14:20

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Re: Re: Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to CTinCT, 04-07-2003 16:01:04

I agree but it is still the law. has to do with the soil types and what plants are growing there. Takes a soil scientist to determine. If we don't think it is right then the law should be changed but until then WE had ALL better be sure before we dig or fill possible wetlands.

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REx

04-07-2003 17:52:51

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How would you turn a swamp into a pond? in reply to BUT IT IS STILL THE LAW, 04-07-2003 17:14:20

Size wise..if a duck can sit on it..it's big enough for a wetland. Aquatic plants are the biggest clue. If you want to maintain eligibility for an USDA Payments..ask the technician at your local County FSA Office. If it is indeed a wetland, no doubt they have it delineated on their photography. It's possible You may be elibible for Federal Funding for your project if it's done with their blessings.

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