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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Reply to Sean

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Deas Plant.

11-13-2003 12:36:21




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Hi, Sean. I have only operated one Komatsu D41S for about two hours although I have run the D55S's, D57S's and D75S's a bit more. If my memory serves me right - and it usually does, so far at least - the D41S I played with seemed to be a hydraulically controlled direct drive. That is, it had no torque converter but all the transmission functions were controlled by one lever. Fiat had a similar system on their early 'powershift' machines. It worked but you could not 'feather' the transmission for fiddly tasks like you can with either a real powershift or a stick-shift. Because the hydraulics run the show the transmission is either 'KLUNK', in or 'KLUNK', out. I stalled the D41S a couple of times before I got the hang of this. Other than the transmission set-up, I liked the D41S. It pushed well, handled well, was well balanced for a small loader and the bucket was quite 'controllable' or 'user-friendly'. I was thrown on it with no time to look around it to clear a road for trucks that arrived 10 minutes after I was given the job of clearing the road. Donchya luv pressure? As mentioned above, I'm not very familiar with the smaller 'Kummagutsa' line-up. What to look for in 941's and 951's. If a 941 has a ripper fitted (which it should or it is only 1/2 useful), you need to get underneath and check the ripper draught frame. The 'pull' for the ripper does not come from the mounting bolts on the back of the steering clutch case. These bolts are only designed to 'carry' the ripper. If you look underneath, you will see a triangular frame with the two outermost rear corners bolted to the bottom of the ripper mounting frame and the front corner of the triangle pinned to a bracket underneath the tractor that vaguely resembles an tractor drawbar anchor point. This pin should have ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT AT ALL. The reason for this is that this triangle frame - henceforth known as the 'draught frame' - is supposed to take all the load of pulling the ripper. There are shims fitted between the rear of the draught frame and the ripper mounting frame. These shims allow for adjustment of the loading on that front pin when/if it should become worn. Check this pin regularly and, if there is any movement in it, remove shims from each side of the rear of the draught frame until it loads the pin up again when you tighten those rear bolts. If the load is not on this pin, you risk cracking the bottom of the steering clutch case when engaging in heavy ripping because it was not designed for that sort of load - it is not a D9. These cracks occur underneath where the floor of the steering clutch case meets the back wall and the first signs you will have of one are that there will be engine grade oil leaking out of the back end of the machine and the steering clutch case oil level will go down, probably slowly for a start. I never got underneath the back end of the 951 - it wasn't 'my' machine - but I think it is the same set-up. Other than that, check for wear lines around the track pin bushes where they contact the sprocket teeth AND feel around the opposite of the bushes too to see if there are wear lines there. If they are there, it indicates that the pins and bushes have been turned and are more than 1/2 worn out. Check track rail height. I don't have the specs for it but you can get them from a Cat dealer or somebody here may have them. If there are wear marks on the inner faces of the the pin bosses (the faces closest to the rail running surfaces) in the rails, both rails and bottom track rollers are worn. Accurately assessing the % of life remaining in a track system involves some serious measuring and having the full specs to compare with. Experienced people can get pretty close by eye and feel but it's not a game for beginners. Too many variables and too many things to consider. However, you will be able to get some idea yourself from the above and people like Bob/ont on this board are more experienced in this side of track matters than I am. Jack the machine up on the bucket and ripper (if fitted) and have a look at the rollers and general condition of the undercarriage frame underneath. Also check the front and rear track guiding guards, inside and out, and the rock guards, if present. The track guiding guards should have replaceable wear plates bolted to the insides of them to lead the track chain onto the idelr and the sprocket. The rock guards are long plates bolted to the underside of the track frame between the front and rear guiding guards to keep rocks, sticks and dirt or mud out of the rollers and to help keep the track chain correctly under the rollers. Tip the bucket forward slightly until the teeth or cutting edge is the only part touching the ground and the rear of the bucket is 6 inches or so clear of the ground. Now slowly raise and lower the bucket, just lifting it clear of the ground and then putting it down again until the weoght of the front of the machine comes on to it. This will allow you to check the bucket linkage pins and bushes for wear. If fitted, check the ripper pins and bushes for wear. This is not a CRITICAL point but does help to give some idea of how hard the machine may have been worked and/or how well it might have been maintained. Look ALL over the machine for cracks and places where cracks have previously been welded. If you have the opportunity - and you have the right to ask for it - get oil samples analysed and be guided by the results 'cos they will show what might be worn or wearing in the engine, transmission, steering clutch and hydraulics. If you are not experienced in crawlers, and it sounds as if you are not, taking a good Cat/Komatsu mechanic or fitter along with you might be one of the smarter investments you could make. Hope this helps. You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Sean

11-13-2003 20:53:10




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 Re: Reply to Sean in reply to Deas Plant., 11-13-2003 12:36:21  
Deas, Thanks yet again for such a detailed, thorough and very informative response. I really enjoy reading what you have to say, I can tell you know an awful lot about this heavy equipment stuff. It looks like BobOnt is also quite an authority, between the two of you there’s quite a bit to learn here. I just hope I’m not causing you post fatigue! In any event the information you provided on the 941 is on the money. I’ve saved it for my records and printed it out so I can study it in my free time. Not sure I’ve grasped all of it just yet, but that’s ok I’ll get it eventually. The part you described about the ripper’s triangular structural mount was very interesting. It’s a little surprising to me that it’s tied to the crawler’s underside with a pin joint of some type, that apparently wears and requires the rear mount to have lash adjustments via shims to keep the pin properly preloaded (if I understand correctly). I would think that the ripper would have a fairly straightforward heavily reinforced frame/plate system to simply bolt to, but I guess there are tremendous loads to account for in conjunction with some flexibility in the chassis (hence the requirement for a pinned joint that facilitates some movement/deflection). The U/C wear description you give is also very informative, but again at the moment a bit over my head. The roller part I followed, but some of the details about the rail height and the pin bosses are a bit sketchy just yet. I think I’m going to track down a manual or some technical reference (hopefully online) for the 941 and try and get smart on the track system (and all of the mechanical systems for that matter). The more I research the various tractors and loaders the more convinced I am that the 941 is probably just about right for what I want to do. Plus pricewise they seem pretty much inline with the other viable options like the Komatsu (“Kummugutsu”) D41S. And the 941 does not a hydrostatic drive unit, which it seems may be better for a lower budget/non-professional application like mine. But the ripper definitely sounds like something I want to have. Which brings to light a few questions: If I had the opportunity to buy a decent non-ripper equipped machine, can one be retrofitted relatively easily? I mean, are the hydraulic hookups, mount and controls already installed on a tractor that did not come with a ripper originally? Most of the 941’s I’ve seen for sale do not have a ripper on them, so it will likely be an issue when I start shopping in earnest. And how hard are rippers to find for a 941 and how much do they run? And what about a backhoe attachment? I saw a Cat loader (a 931) with a backhoe attachment…now THAT would be handy! But again, how a backhoe would interface with an originally non-backhoe equipped machine is a mystery to me. On another note, after reading more and more old posts in the forum, I feel a bit guilty for asking such repetitious questions. It seems like an awful lot of people come and go and basically ask the same questions about smaller/mid-size loaders over and over again. Maybe not the exact same questions, but similar variations on a theme that’s for sure. It sure would be nice to spare you experts the fatigue of answering the really dumb questions (like I have, haha) and save the more interesting and unique ones for the forum. Does anyone know the admin? Maybe we can get an FAQ going and at least fill in some of the blanks for the crawler clueless (like me)... (cont)

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Deas Plant.

11-13-2003 23:47:28




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 Re: Re: Reply to Sean in reply to Sean, 11-13-2003 20:53:10  
Hi, Sean, Firstly, for anybody getting into this game from scratch, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask, especially if it ends up costing you money. Even the older hands can learn on a forum such as this. If you ever stop learning, you are dead, at least from the neck up. After-market rippers are certainly available DownUnder so I would be pretty surprised if they weren't over your way. As far as I am aware the valve and plumbing comes with the machine from the factory except for the lines from the tank to the ram(s). These can be fabricated by any 1/2-way competent hydraulic fitter/repairman. I think I would also be doing the rounds of the parter-outers -- wreckers DownUnder -- looking for 2nd hand rippers. The mounting plate/draughtframe set-up is about the only virtually non-negotiable part. Anything else is likely to give trouble. A backhoe attachment is a definite possibility assuming that you can find one that will mount. To me, the ideal way would be to remove the ripper by un-pinning the links from the mounting plate and pin the backhoe attachment to the ripper mounting plate. Hydraulic flow to run multiple rams simultaneously might be a problem. I think that unless you tapped into a bucket circuit - hoist or crowd - you would be stuck with the ripper circuit flow which may not be up to it as it was only intended to run one short-stroke ram. I think it would be a case of tapping a circuit and leaving it open one way to feed control valves built into the 'hoe attachment, but I'm no expert on hydraulics. Bob/ont may be able to help here. Sorry, I ran out of time this morning. I meant also to say that the 941/51's are power-shift with wet steering clutches and brakes and both systems give very little trouble. The ripper draught arrangement is not as silly/complicated as it sounds when you see it. It simply takes the ripper pull and transfers it to a part of the machine better suited to handling it. And the pin does not wear all that much. It is simply good policy to check it whenever you are under the back end because it does wear very slowly and can cause you grief if you don't check it regularly. Believe me, it does sometimes occur to me to wonder why some posters of queries appear to think that they are the only ones to ever have come up with that particular query. There are some pretty impressive archives here and I don't know if there is a 'use-by' date on them or not. There is also a search facility for subject matter. Maybe something can be done with that to make it easier for new arrivals -- and older members -- to locate already posted information -- man or woman-power and time permitting. You have a wonderful day, Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Sean

11-14-2003 19:51:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Reply to Sean in reply to Deas Plant., 11-13-2003 23:47:28  
Deas, I've decided to start hunting around the local used lots/yards and see what I can see. I'm going to give ripper mounts, tracks and rollers a good once over and start getting familiarized with the whole program. Maybe even take a test drive or two if I'm feeling adventurous! (if the sales guy is crazy enough to trust me) They are also doing quite a bit of logging in my area because of the damage done by the Isabel storm (which hit the east US coast pretty good about 2 months ago). I'm going to go watch the loaders and see how they do their stuff...although most of the excavating companies around here appear to use the newer 953/963 series of loaders. But it still couldn't hurt to talk with the operators and watch them work for a while. In the meantime I sent an email to the admin of this site requesting an FAQ page for the crawler section. I told her I would put in some time and effort putting it together. If she agrees to it, with your permission and some of the other knowledgeable guys, I'll probably cut and paste a lot of the repetitious (frequently asked) material and flesh it out a bit. Obviously I'm not the right person to really answer the questions, but some of them I could probably expound on and then have you guys proof read it and get your seal of approval or any edits before final posting. Once I hear more from her, I'll let you know either way. Thanks again for all your help...

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Deas Plant.

11-15-2003 01:25:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Reply to Sean in reply to Sean, 11-14-2003 19:51:32  
Hi, Sean. Happy hunting, Mate. A couple more little points to look at with those 941' and 951's. They have two grease nipples accessible through the top engine cover. One is for the fan bearing and the other is for the engine output shaft bearing. If there is caked and dried, cracked grease around these or no grease at all like they haven't been greased in a LONG time, be extra careful in checking the machine out 'cos the maintenance may have been rather slack. Likewise, there are grease nipples under the sprocket covers on each side for the outer track frame bearings. They are located at about half past one as you look at the sprocket, in a little slot cut into the cover around the bolt line outside the bearing. All these fittings only need to be greased around once-twice a week at three-four pumps each time or you risk blowing the seals. Feel free to e-mail me with any queries if you want. Hope this helps. You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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