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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Excavator With a Thumb

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Joel Harman

12-09-2003 14:09:15

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Am I the only one in the world that would rather use a hoe with a thumb to clear ground? No dirt in the burn piles, little disturbance to ground except for around the stumps. Is it that they are too hard to operate?

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Joel Harman

12-09-2003 19:47:50

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Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Joel Harman, 12-09-2003 14:09:15

Les, thank you for expanding on what I was too lazy to write. I used to build road with a 310A. Boy, was that hard on it! Also used a TD-9. Would MUCH rather use a track hoe. I think it is quicker to pull ditches with a crawler as long as it has a 6-way blade on it.

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Bob/Ont

12-09-2003 15:28:24

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Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Joel Harman, 12-09-2003 14:09:15

Joel, most people here are early into the game and an Excavator might be a bit intimidating for them. Later Bob

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Polish Mike

12-09-2003 14:23:45

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Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Joel Harman, 12-09-2003 14:09:15

I use 'em any time they're available...Problem is, none of the machines I get to run ever have 'em. Like you said, sure makes clearing a few acres a lot easier...

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Sean

12-09-2003 15:59:06

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Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Polish Mike, 12-09-2003 14:23:45

Well, I was under the impression that a good tracked loader could do quite a bit more work than an a hoe could. But then I know hoes can surgically extract big stumps and do some tricky grading a loader would have trouble with. But is a hoe REALLY the way to go for clearing a few acres and cutting a driveway? Also, a decent sized hoe is mighty expensive, isn't it? I mean when compared to a comparably priced loader? And please bear with me here because I'm a newbie, but it would be good to hear the benefits of going with a hoe vs a loader. (I thought I had this all figured out! lol) Seriously though, a good explanation would be helpful....

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Len Sholes

12-09-2003 17:38:50

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Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Sean, 12-09-2003 15:59:06

Just to add a bit to Joel's and Sean's questions about thumbs on HEX's and track loaders. I will try to give you some of the history that I have been involved in. Before the excavator first came out loggers were building logging roads with D7's D8's and even D9's. With the introduction of the HEX it became very evident that the HEX was a much more productive machine and their road building costs went down. The first mode of a thumb was a dead stick one that did not have a hydraulic cylinder attached to it. It was either in the work mode or you could pin it back up against the stick if all you were doing was bailing dirt. Next came the hydraulic thumb which made the HEX and even more verstile machine. The biggest problem with installing a thumb on the earlier machines was getting the hydraulics for the cylinder. As time went on most machines had a location for a dedicated pump which made the installation a lot easier and cheaper. I know a few years ago some of the larger forestry companies would not hire a HEX for road building unless it had a thumb. In the construction industry track loaders have almost been replaced by the HEX due to its versatility. As for what to use for cutting a road and clearing land I would have to say the HEX is the only way to go. You can get a rake to take the place of the bucket and along with the thumb you not only can clear the land but you can also scarify it. I hope this is of some help to you.

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Rory A

12-09-2003 18:30:10

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Len Sholes, 12-09-2003 17:38:50

Im with len on this issue. An excavator is more expensive to buy, but costs a lot less to operate. We have been in the excavating business for more than 55 years, have owned a lot of equipment in that time, many track loaders. When we started getting good hyd. machines we got rid of the track loaders, and I dont think we will ever own another.

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Sean

12-09-2003 20:42:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Rory A, 12-09-2003 18:30:10

That's interesting as heck. It's tough for me to imagine how an apparently lurching/plodding backhoe could outwork a decent sized zippy hydrostat loader with a ripper and a nice toothed bucket on it. Especially for road work. I definitely wouldn't think a hoe could outwork a loader in fairly soft and open ground (i.e. not a lot of rocks and stumps). Digging good sized holes, grading on slopes, dealing with big rocks and stumps, I could see that. But I guess you guys know (especially with 55 years of experience!), but frankly that surprises me on the road work. Come to think of it though, I have seen an awful lot of hoes on road sides etc lately. And my neighbor was telling me just the other day they used a big hoe to clear his lot and grade the slope in his yard. Still, there must be more than a few situations where the loader still shines...right??

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Joel Harman

12-10-2003 08:57:30

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Sean, 12-09-2003 20:42:50

To level with a hoe one gets bucket flat then swings. Then reach out a little more, level, swing, etc. All a matter of how good the operator is.

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Deas Plant.

12-10-2003 03:56:01

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Sean, 12-09-2003 20:42:50

Hi, Folks. Many of you have read my posts about track - and 4 wd - loaders here before. I currently work for a company that has NINE Cat track loaders, 2 hydraulic excavators (trackhoes or whatever else you want to call them) and a Cat D5B 'dozer. All the track loaders have 4-in-1 buckets and rippers. The D5B has a bull tilt blade and rippers. We do many different types of work, by far the greatest part of it being excavating/levelling house sites. We also do driveways, access roads, farm dams and ponds, clearing, clean-ups, spreading and compacting fill, bulk excavations and so on, etc., etc.. Our two excavators, both non-Cat, don't get to see very many house sites at all that a track loader has not previously been too and found rock that the excavators can handle better with their rippers or rock hammers. We trim our house pads to +/- 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch with laser grade checking equipment on the machines. These tolerances are REQUIRED by the builders and concreters. I can tell you from personal experience that it is a LOT easier to achieve with a track loader than with an excavator. I would not personally allow a contractor to use a hydraulic excavator to level a house site for me UNLESS there was rock there that a track loader could not handle. Track loaders beat a trackhoe or a similar sized 'dozer hands down for compaction simply because they carry their heavy, compact frames on narrower tracks than either of the others. Track loaders beat a 'dozer for clearing heavier timber because of their extra reach - unless you have a tree pusher bar on the dozer. Then the 'dozer comes up trumps because of its extra traction. A 4-in-1 bucket on a track loader makes them a lot more useful for clearing operations too. With the 4-in-1 bucket you can, if you so desire, put together a heap of trees and brush with virtually no dirt in it, just as you can with an excavator. And you'll do it quicker with the track loader if you have to move much of it more than about 10 to 12 yards, simply because of the extra travel speed. Also, it is easier/ quicker to get all your trees/logs facing the same way in the heap with a track loader. For dam sinking/pond construction, I would choose a good 'dozer with a straight blade fitted with a tilt cylinder over a similar-sized track loader every time, given that both had rippers. I recently put in a farm dam that was almost 100 yards long by 60 yards wide with a Cat 953 track loader. The Cat D5B would have done it easier. How many times would you have to re-handle the material to get it where you wanted it with an excavator/trackhoe in a dam that size? And you are not even running over your banks with each bucketful to compact them. No, thanks. For mine, if you can handle your material ONCE WITHIN the working radius of a trackhoe and you DON'T have to compact it much, then a trackhoe will likely outproduce a track loader, especially if the going is a little hard. Having said that, I was working a Cat 953B track loader (15 tons) alongside a Cat 350 excavator (around 50 tons) recently. We were digging similar type material and loading it into 6-wheel rigid chassis tippers of around 13 ton payload. The excavator was loading his trucks in three buckets. I was loading mine in 3 1/2 buckets, taking around 30 seconds longer per truck. I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out initial purchase prices, running costs, etc.. Personally, I think the 953 showed up pretty well this time. AND it's a LOT easier to transport around too. Please, don't get me wrong. There are jobs that an excavator or a 'dozer will do better than a track loader and for those, given the choice, I would take an excavator or a 'dozer as it was appropriate. However, if I had to choose ONE machine to be a jack-of-all-trades, it would be a track loader with a 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. As has been said here before, there is nothing much that a track loader will do that something else will not do better. Track loaders are not BEST at much of anything -- EXCEPT VERSATILITY. They will do far more jobs adequately than any other machine I know of. Another 'having said that': If the going was relatively lighter, I would also be considering a 4 wd articulated front end loader with a 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. There are not a lot of these animals around but I have been lucky enough to have operated two for lengthy periods, a Case W7E and a Cat 950. They surprised the h**l out of a LOT of people. Including clearing trees, excavating rippable rock and digging straight out of a face with the bucket. Naturally enough, the Cat 950 beat the Case W7E every which way because it is around twice the size, but it beat it by a fair bit more than twice the production too. Hope this helps some of you who don't have the backside-on-seat time to gather this kind of knowledge for yourselves. You all have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Rory A

12-10-2003 10:59:20

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a Thumb in reply to Deas Plant., 12-10-2003 03:56:01

I agree with you completely that the trackloader is a jack of all trades and master of none. The 4 wheel drive loader backhoe is also in the same catagory, but it is more versitle, less costly to operate, faster, and easier to move. It wont beat a track loader with rippers in rippable rock, but it will beat a compareable size track loader in most other applications. If the job is too big for the loader backhoe, we use an excavator, wheel loader, dozer, any one or combination to achive the desired production. When it comes to finish grading, my operators and I can dig a basement/footing/pond/ditch/ect. within a 1/10 of an inch with an excavator, we use a smooth edged bucket for a nice flat smooth finish- and we still use a transit to check grade. Of corce when ever it is practicle we do the grading with a dozer or grader. When it comes to clearing timber I love an excavator with a thumb, you can knock the tree down, snap the stump and top off and load the log on a trailer or pile, and then eaisly pile the brush- no or atleast very little chain sawing invloved. If we are clearing a large area we knock the big stuff down with the excavator and push and pile with a dozer or loader- you would be supprised what a wheel loader with a brush rake can do. When it comes to ponds if you can dig it without rehandeling the material, we dig it with an excavator, if it is bigger than that we use a dozer, and if the material has to be pushed farther than say 300 feet we use an excavator and trucks or scrapers, depending on ground conditions. When it comes to truck loading, if the conditons are dry we use wheel loaders, they are faster and less expencive than track loaders, if it is too wet for a wheel loader, or digging rock from a bank we use excavators. Everyone has their own methods and oppinions, I am not tring to say that trackloaders are junk and have no purpose, but in our area I am much happier with the cost and versitlity of the 4x4 backhoe loaders.

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Sean

12-10-2003 12:06:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With a T in reply to Rory A, 12-10-2003 10:59:20

Wow, this is a great thread, VERY informative. You guys really shed some light on this topic, and it makes me realize things I never knew about how these various machines can be used for various jobs. I never realized just how useful a hoe could be. I always thought they were just used for slope grading, trenches and basements...but didn't really pose much of a threat to the almighty loader. And it's really interesting to hear that the hoe is outright replacing the loader in many realms, especially for road work. Although I still see plenty of "newish" (recently purchased) loaders around my area in use all the time (moreso than hoes), so I believe as Deas pointed out although the loader may be a compromise on most tasks, it's versatility still has it's place. I guess the main drivers for which is best for the particular job on hand is how far the dirt/logs have to be carried, how many stumps there are (and their size) and/or how many times the dirt must be moved (like in a large pond which would favor a loader/dozer). But since a hoe is so good at digging out stumps and excavating a road surface, this brings to light a few questions. I plan on buying a tracked loader to clear a few wooded acres and clear a ~900' driveway (with undercutting about 1'-2' the whole way). Would a decent sized 4WD rubber tire backhoe (not a wheeled loader) with a 4-1 toothed bucket on the front do the job? I realize it wouldn't have the brute force/power of a 941 loader (or thereabouts), but could a larger backhoe like a Case 580 or a Ford 555/655 be used with reasonable success to clear stumps, driveways and land? If I could go the way of the backhoe, that would be a real benefit in the long run. I could use it to cut my footings, dig my septic, move gravel and construction supplies around much more easily, and then also use it to spread recycled asphalt on my driveway and even to plow snow in the winter (without having tracks chew everything up). Plus it would be half the weight of a tracked loader so I could buy a smaller trailer and tow it around without having to rent/buy a really large truck. I realize clearing land or driveways with a backhoe like that wouldn't be commercially feasible, but for a harry homeowner willing to put in some time, could it be used effectively for this purpose? Also, the soil on my lot tends to be pretty softish sandy clay stuff with some fine gravel...I dont think there are too many rocks in it. Thanks again to all for the fantastic input...

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TimV

12-10-2003 15:38:32

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With in reply to Sean, 12-10-2003 12:06:46

Sean: Lots of good info here, and there's certainly no one right answer to the question--if one machine worked better than another for everything, no one would make or buy anything else! A tractor/loader/backhoe setup, with or without 4wd and a 4 in 1 bucket (though I'd recommend both) is an excellent all-purpose tool. Advantages peculiar to your situation include ease of moving around, cheaper to purchase, and (generally) cheaper to maintain and operate. Also, a TLB setup is somewhat easier for an inexperienced operator to run than a hoe, though that's a relative term--neither machine is a "jump-on-it-and-go" proposition. As I mentioned in a previous thread, I bought my backhoe with the express purpose of doing some cleanup and landscaping on my 3 acres, and I was very happy with my choice. Even without 4wd or a 4 in 1 bucket, I was able to do a lot of tree clearing, stump pulling, ditch digging, and lawn levelling work with it, though of course at a slower pace than I would have with a more modern machine. All in all, it was $3300 well spent, particularly considering that I sold it for what I had paid for it after a year of use. This is by no means saying that it's the perfect machine for the job, but I think that the versatility of the TLB setup is hard to beat for a wide range of the type of projects that you'll be doing, both during and after your inital clearing stage.

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Rory A

12-10-2003 14:43:17

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator With in reply to Sean, 12-10-2003 12:06:46

A backhoe would do an exelent job of that, it will just take you longer than a loader would. We use our backhoes for exactly theses kinds of residetial jobs, although I would use something bigger for the driveway and clearing, but since you are not in a hurry it would work. Backhoes do good for there size in clearing, because you can dig around the bigger trees and push them down with the hoe, then backfill and move the tree with the loader. Four wheel drive is worth every extra penny if you are doing a lot of loader work or have muddy conditions. I personaly feel that 4 in 1 buckets are overrated, unless you do more picking up odd objects (rocks, stumps, trees, ect.) than moving dirt, because of their reduced capacity. Any good operator can do anything with a normal bucket that you can do with a 4in1, it just takes a little longer. Another thing, probaly more my oppinion, the Ford backhoes are the best you can get, they have much more hyd power than the cases and cats for that matter and they are a well built tough machine. I know that a lot of people like cases, but they probaly never used a ford. I am glad we could help you out.

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Sean

12-11-2003 07:57:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excavator in reply to Rory A, 12-10-2003 14:43:17

Thanks to everybody for such fantastic posts. This forum is a great place to learn about loaders and hoes and dozers and I certainly appreciate everybody who goes through the trouble of typing out such detailed and thorough information...preasheat it! I see a lot of 4WD Ford 555 and 655 backhoes for sale in the classifieds in my area. I've always liked Fords (especially my old 70 torino with a 351 Cleveland and 4:30 detroit locker rear)...anyone know if 555/655's are good units?

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TimV

12-11-2003 08:27:12

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excava in reply to Sean, 12-11-2003 07:57:04

Sean: Both of these are decent machines, though I don't have a lot of experience with either. Our local road crew has a 555 and they like it. The Case 580 series seems to be the most popular here in NY, but that's not to say it's the best--just the most popular. Local dealer support is one of the single most important factors, for both parts availibility and local mechanic expertise. Unless you're a first-rate mick-a-nick you're going to run into some things that you can't diagnose or fix on your own. This is especially true of the "newer" hoes (less than 20 years old) which have lots of electronics. When things break (AND THEY WILL, regardess of model), you need to be able to get back up and running without having to wait 2 months for parts.

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