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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Kubota Loader/hoe

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justJeff

12-29-2003 20:16:01




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Thanks to everyone for the info when I asked about a 3pt hoe for our MF35 and questions about compact excavators. While traveling visiting relatives over the Holiday I looked at some compact excavators. I also looked at, and talked to the owners of some of the compact industrial loader/hoes like the Kubota B21TLB's. A couple of contractors were doing what we would like to do, foundation excavation, small clearing and utility trenching with these small machines. I talked to a fellow with a gas utility that said the gas company has several and digs in all sorts of ground with them. Does anyone have any experience with these tractors? I like the looks of the Terramite also. There are some pretty excellent tax benefits so we're thinking seriously of new or a late model compact loader/hoe. Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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John R

12-31-2003 18:14:32




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 Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-29-2003 20:16:01  
Jeff, If you are going to dig footings, pour concrete, and then core out the middle your best way is to have a mini-excavator and a skid steer loader. If you are going to dig foundation hole and the form and pour footings then you can get by with just the skidloader. I am a small contractor that does 40-50 foundations a year and I have 2 min-excavators and 2 skid steers - one rubber tired and one rubber track. If I had to give up one skid steer I don't know which one I would. I would probably keep the tracked one. We dig the footings first and then core out the middle. That is the only way to dig a hole. We work in all kinds of dirt including sand. If you are only using the backhoe for trenching, get a good skidsteer and use a backhoe attachment until you can afford a mini-excavator. I have used this combination for years, and I will never go back to a TLB.

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justJeff

01-02-2004 17:58:44




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 Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to John R, 12-31-2003 18:14:32  
John, we're going to take a look at the ASV tracked loaders as well as the S130 Bobcat. I've talked to a couple of folks that said they have had track problems with their ASV tracks coming off. What do yo think of the tracks on the wheeled skid steers, the ones that go over the tires? A local Bobcat dealer is going to bring out a machine with tracks on the tires, demo it, and leave it with us for a week or so to try it out to see if we want to buy one. So far I've been really impressed with their level of customer service. I can rent the backhoe attachment form them for $100 per day when we need to trench, and can backfill with the loader. I think one of these more heavily built industrial type machines might work best for us in the long run.

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justJeff

12-31-2003 19:44:33




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 Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to John R, 12-31-2003 18:14:32  
We started thinking that way as well John. We're going to go look at the ASV RC50 next week. It's tracked, and has a pretty okay backhoe attachment. Due to the way we need to build to our high wind load it's a lot easier for us to excavate the entire foundation hole, form for the footings, pour them, strip those forms, and pour the foundation walls. Our houses are selling usually before sheetrock, and sometimes as soon as the hole is dug and the house is listed with a conceptual drawing, especially on waterfront homes. Our main reason for wanting a piece of equipment is to speed the utility trenching up. On one house last year our excavator was so busy that he trenched for the power, it was put in, and it was three weeks before he made it back to backfill the trench. Meanwhile the house has a sign in front and the place looks torn up. The same thing has happened on sewer trenches. It's become really frustrating. We're the largest spec builder in the area and pay the same day we're invoiced, so getting treated like that has become really tiresome. We also build some custom log homes on the other side of the mountains, so having something that we can put fork attachments on for moving logs will save some time over the truck mounted crane. Happy New Year.

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Brokenwrench

12-30-2003 15:29:21




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 Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-29-2003 20:16:01  
Get a decent sized skid loader(1500-2000# lift capacity) with a universal attachment plate,a set of removable tracks, a backhoe attachment,a toothed bucket and a straight bucket.It will do everything you want,plus you have the option of renting specialized attachments(trenchers,stump grinders,grapple buckets,pavement profilers etc) as the need arises.It will all fit on a trailer that you can pull with a 3/4 ton pickup.

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TimV

12-30-2003 06:24:42




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 Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-29-2003 20:16:01  
Jeff: Kubota and Terramite both make an excellent product, and the popularity of these machines at rental yards and on small construction sites (like yours) is a testament to their worth. However, they do have their drawbacks for the work that you are doing, which include rather poor manuverability (turning radius and ability to stay un-stuck) which can hurt in tight quarters. Also, their lift, reach, and swing (particularly swing!) capabilities are all typically less than a comparably-priced mini-excavator. While they are perhaps a better all-around machine, if you don't plan on taking advantage of their other capabilities (such as being able to mount other 3-point attachments like a York rake or back blade) you're better off getting the mini-excavator. Only you can determine exactly what chores you will be using the machine for, but as a blanket statement, if you will be doing mostly trenching and backfill work the mini-excavator is a better tool for the job.

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justJeff

12-30-2003 08:05:28




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 Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to TimV, 12-30-2003 06:24:42  
Thanks for the thoughts Tim. What about for foundation excavation, which machine would your prefer? I thought the loader would make the excavation of the foundation hole go faster. Our lots are good sized where we build. I don't think the somewhat large turning radius (9.4' for the B21 I think) will present much of a problem. My biggest concern about a mini excavator is using it for clearing the brush and such from a lot, and moving the brush some distance once it is piled up. Also spreading materials such as driveway rock seems like it would be much more difficult with the mini excavator. Ideally I'd like to have a mini excavator and a loader or crawler, but for now we're limited to getting one machine. Some other contractors in the area are using small loader/hoes for doing the trenching work, spreading rock, finish grade/landscaping type of functions. Most are hiring someone with a large excavator and crawler though to excavate foundation holes and lot clearing though. It may be best for me to rent a B21 first, for a week or so, and see how it performs the work we need to do. There is a United Rental not far away that sells them with about 5-600 hours on them and will apply the rental to the purchase if someone buys it. For new I'm getting quotes around 26k for the 21TLB, and United told me for a year old one with 500 hours it would be around 19k. I'm somewhat leary of rental machines though, what do you think?

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TimV

12-30-2003 10:37:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 08:05:28  
Jeff: Let me say right up front that I make no claim to being the be-all-and-end-all expert on this subject. However, I've had a fair bit of experience owning and operating various machines and can make a few statements based on personal experience. I think your decision to rent a machine first is the smartest choice. However, don't base your decision on a few hours of operating time. Any of these machines will take some getting used to in order to make an objective assesment of their capabilities. Last summer, a friend rented a small Kubota to do some clean-up of a swampy, spring-fed area of his property and was less than enchanted with the machine's ability. He ended up using my Trencherman to do the work as it would pull itself around better than the Kubota, which suffered from lack of ground clearance, poor weight distribution, and inability to dump the spoil a sufficient distance (degrees of swing, not length of reach) from the dug area to be useful. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at a mini-excavator's ability to clear land--it's no D8, but (particularly with a hydraulic thumb) they can be quite effective at clearing and stacking debris for pickup. I wouldn't expect the excavator to be the "prime mover" in your operation anyway--that job belongs to a dump truck, and even a tractor and bucket (particularly the small buckets found on the Kubota-class tractors) won't be of much use either, particularly if the stuff you're uprooting is longer than the bucket. As I mentioned before, no machine is perfect for every use, but if you already have a tractor with a loader, you're better off putting your money into a good mini-excavator, which will gain you a whole different set of capabilities.

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justJeff

12-30-2003 11:44:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to TimV, 12-30-2003 10:37:38  
Tim, I forgot to mention that we've also considered something like the ASV RC30, which is a tracked machine. People with two wheel drive skid steers get them stuck in the sand here, but I guess the tracked skid steers do really well. Our trenching needs are pretty simple, a sewer trench that is 42" at the deep end, and a 2' deep power utility trench. I thought that the avaialbe backhoe could possibly work for those chores, and the loader with teeth on the bucket could be used for the foundation excavation and clearing, and the teeth removed for final grading and spreading materials. Do you have any experience or opinions of these machines? CAT (who owns ASV) has similar mahcines to the RC50, which is larger, but nothing like the RC30.

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justJeff

12-30-2003 11:23:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to TimV, 12-30-2003 10:37:38  
Thanks again Tim. That is certainly a good point, I could use the loader on our MF35 for moving stuff around, and use the excavator for clearing and excavating. I had thought about that some. We were trying to stay with one piece of machinery so that I could move it in one trip. We're planning to move onto our farm in about a year, and it's a seven hour drive from where we live and build now. We'll keep building here, but I'd prefer to not need to bring two machines in two trips. I suppose I could leave the excavator here as we'll mostly need the tractor at the farm. I looked at the compact Kubota excavators while I was at a dealer. I believe to get a hydralic thumb from them it required going to the KX91-3, which is heavier than we would need, or want to trailer. Do you have any reccomendations for a smaller excavator that might have a hydralic thumb available? I know the sub that we use now has a large Hitachi excavator with a thumb and he says that he would never own another without it. We burn most of the brush that is cleared and he can shake some of the dirt off the stuff as he's piling it to burn, which is nice. How small of an excavator do you think we could go with and still be okay? I don't mind sacrificing some speed for easy portability. I know in looking at breakout forces of the mini excavators that they are much higher than the smaller tractor mounted hoes. How about the foundation holes? Most of our holes are 2' deep, and about 30'x40', or in that neighborhood. Would excavating those with the small excavator mean needing to move the excavated dirt more than once from the center to get it to the sides of the hole? Thanks again for the well thought out advice Tim, it is really appreciated.

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TimV

12-30-2003 11:59:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 11:23:39  
Jeff: A few thoughts: I do not have enough knowledge on specific machines to recommend a particular model, though I'm sure others that frequent this forum will have better input than I. One option that you can look at is a "pin-on" thumb. This is a non-hydraulic thumb that slips over the stick and is held in place by bolts, pins, or a similar method. This obviates the need for another hydraulic circuit and the associated complexity, though of course cuts down somewhat on the utility of the thumb. However, as the main job of the thumb is to serve as a means of pinching loads of spoil between the bucket and the thumb, it can gain you quite a bit of functionality with minimal cost. They are also quickly removeable--something that can't always be said for a fully hydraulic version. Several of the build-it-yourself CadDigger-type hoes have this option, and it seems to work out well. With regard to having to move the spoil twice, this is certainly possible, depending on the exact configuration of both your machine and your foundation. However, if the mini-excavator has 360 degree swing (or even 180 degree) you can reach a long way out to dump the spoil. Also, with a small tractor-mounted hoe, you are virtually guaranteed of having to move the dirt twice, as none of these units have sufficient swing to be able to move 180 degrees safely and repeatedly with a full bucket. They are typically designed to dig directly behind the machine, or in a fairly limited arc, and are unstable and dangerous to operate if you attempt to put the machine 90 degrees to your work.

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justJeff

12-30-2003 12:34:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to TimV, 12-30-2003 11:59:29  
Thanks Tim. Speaking of the Cad Diggers, I have a neighbor at the farm that built, and is selling one. It is the model similar to the trencherman, where you swap the tires and stablilizers to tow it behind a rig, or to use it. He said he would sell it to me for $2,000, which is about what he has in the plans and materials. Looking at the cadplans site and the link to the material kit, I am sure that is true. He went with a couple of heavier hydralic components I guess. He built it to use to bury water lines and such at his property, and is done with it. We've thought about buying it to dig our foundation hole at the farm (don't care if it's really slow) and for buring our water lines and stuff up there. We could continue to sub out our clearing and foundation work, but use it to do our trenching, and avoid the expenditure of a more expensive piece of equipment. I just got off the phone with a dealer that sells Kubota and ASV equipment. He's familiar with our area and says he thinks that the ASV RC30 with the quick attach loader would be the ticket over something like the B21TLB. He said the digging force of the RC50 is tremendous with the loader due to the traction.

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TImV

12-30-2003 13:11:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 12:34:51  
Jeff: I can't speak personally for the tracked "skid steers" as I have never used one. However, I've owned a Trencherman for a couple of years now, and the darn thing is a digging little fool! I bought it when I got rid of my full-sized backhoe (1963 Fordson Super Major with front bucket and Ford hoe) and it's been busy ever since. Now if I could only keep my friends from borrowing it long enough to use it myself occasionally..... .... You will be pleasantly surprised at how much you can accomplish with one, as long as you realize their limitations and don't think it's a full-blown backhoe.

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justJeff

12-30-2003 13:17:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to TImV, 12-30-2003 13:11:48  
Tim, since we already have the MF35 with a loader on it, would you be more tempted to go with something like the cad digger or a 3pt mounted backhoe on the Massey? If we put a 3pt hoe on our tractor we would stick with fairly easy, slow digging. Our utility trenches are in sand, really easy digging here at the beach. We will have water lines and such to bury at the farm property, as well as a trench for the power to the house. How manueverable is something like a trencherman or cad digger? I know you pull them around with their own bucket. I thought that maybe the tractor mounted hoe might be a little easier to get around with. What do you think?

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TImV

12-30-2003 13:39:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/ in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 13:17:14  
Jeff: It depends on what you mean by "get around". Specifically, short distances (like repositioning for another "bite" on a trench) are faster with the Trencherman, as you have no outriggers to raise, front bucket to reposition, or tractor to drive ahead. Most of the purpose-built TLB setups have a system whereby you can do all of this from the "digging seat", but a 3-point hoe on a farm tractor will have none of these conveniences. On the other hand, moving any distance more than (roughly, of course) 20-30 feet will be faster with the tractor, as "crab-walking" the Trencherman is slow going. Some of the CadDigger units have optional hydraulically activated wheels you use to move the unit around, which is a much more efficient way to cover larger distances. Also bear in mind that you won't be able to do many of the things a "real" backhoe setup can do with a 3-point version--they're not built heavily enough (or attached firmly enough) to do things like "crabbing" the tractor sideways to extend your digging range. Finally, there's the option of hooking the CadDigger to a ball mounted on the tractor's drawbar. This way, you have the weight of the tractor to assist in steadying your digging, and it makes moving longer distances a quick proposition--just jump on the tractor and go. The flip side is loss of short-range mobility--you have to hop off from the CadDigger, jump on the tractor, move the tractor a few feet, and then jump back on the digger. This is the slowest option, but it really isn't that much slower than it would be with a 3-point backhoe, where you're doing essentially the same thing.

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coonhunter

12-30-2003 04:40:31




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 Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-29-2003 20:16:01  
Jeff, E-mail me, as I have a nice Kubota B-21 T/L/B for sale. I also have a nice Komatsu PC 40 w/cab and steel tracks. I'm in CT. Thanks, Jim.



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justJeff

12-30-2003 08:07:22




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 Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to coonhunter, 12-30-2003 04:40:31  
Coonhunter, when I click on your name it doesn't give me the option to email you. How can I get ahold of you?



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Jim Tillson

01-01-2004 15:07:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 08:07:22  
Sorry Jeff, One more time, click on my e-mail,thanks, Jim.



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Jim Tillson

01-01-2004 14:41:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 08:07:22  
Jeff, Let's try this again. Click on my e-mail and we'll talk. thanks, Jim.



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coonhunter

01-01-2004 14:38:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 08:07:22  
Jeff, Click on my my e-mail address, where R U from??? thanks, Jim.



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Alvin n Ms.

12-30-2003 22:05:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to justJeff, 12-30-2003 08:07:22  
Jeff, after you get the hoe for the MF35, I have an Attari computer that I will sell real cheap. alvinnms



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justJeff

12-30-2003 22:32:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Kubota Loader/hoe in reply to Alvin n Ms., 12-30-2003 22:05:37  
We've decided not to get a hoe for the MF35 Alvin, it just didn't sound like it would work very well.



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