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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Bobcat vs. Tracked?

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justJeff

01-04-2004 08:56:32




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We've narrowed our search for a machine down to either a Bobcat skidsteer, either a new S130, or a late model 753, which is what the S130 replaced. Our other choice is an ASV RC50 tracked machine. We've looked at the Bobcat tracked machines also, but they don't seem as well thought out or designed as the ASV, and they're more expensive. The Bobcat fellow is telling us to get the S130 with a set of tracks that go over the tires for it. Everyone I've talked with so far says that the tracks over tires doesn't work near as well as the ASV tracked system which is more supported. Everyone tells me that the ASV has a lot more "grunt" for digging and pushing due to th superior traction. Both machines have the now standard attachment interface and can use attachmetns made by about anyone. ASV does make a superior backhoe attachment that has the controls pivot back to the regular operator seat to use, so it's easy to move the machine while you're working. The Bobcat backhoe requires the operator to set out front and get back into the machine to move it. We build spec houses at the beach, the soil is all sand. We need the machine to clear lots, mostly of brush that is 3" and less. Level the lots, dig a 24" deep foundation hole, and spread material for the driveway, and do final grading and dress up and landscaping functions. We also need to dig utility trenches. My thought was we could rent a backhoe attachment for the trenching for now, until we purchased a new one ourselves, or found a good deal on a used one. We do all of our trenching at one time, a 2' deep one for the water line, a sewer trench that is 42" at the deep end, and a 2' deep power trench with a 3'x3' pit at each end. I thought we could rent the backhoe attachment for a day, dig the trenches, return the hoe, get everything in and then backfill with the loader bucket. Which machine would any of you reccomend? I know that the sand offers poor traction. The tracked machines are supposed to be vastly superior with regard to traction. Would the tracks on a wheeled skidsteer be adequate? Price-wise we can get a new S130 with the suspension seat upgrade with a new set of Bobcat tracks for about $21,500. New the ASV RC50 is about $28,000, but there are some used ones in the area that are a year old with 400-500 hours for $23,000. The ASV's are from the ASV dealers rental fleet. The ASV's keep setting increasing sales records, and there aren't a lot of used ones available. That makes me think that people must be haning on to them and liking them. Any thoughts or advice would be really appreciated.

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matt

01-14-2004 09:04:44




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 Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 08:56:32  
i have owned a asv rc50 for ayear and love it. i am selling it because of an injury it has 96hrs great shape $22000.00 firm. located western pa



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gatractorman

01-06-2004 03:49:54




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 Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 08:56:32  
The metal tracks over tires adds tremendous amount of stress to the drive chains as well as the hydrostatic drive system, the T190 Bobcat has a better drive system that the T200 I've replaced numerous drive motors on the T200's, not been around the ASV's much but have heard only good reports from them.



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Deas Plant.

01-05-2004 14:01:38




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 Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 08:56:32  
Hi, JustJeff. If you want a machine that you can take from sand to heavier soils and even a bit of rock, I'd suggest a track loader, specifically a Cat 941 or 943 with a 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. Much as I don't like the rough little mongrels, even a Cat 931 would do both and then there are the Cat 935 and 939, of which I have no experience and have never even had the chance to watch. The ASV will cream its oppostion in sand and cleaning up around sites in heavier soils but they have a bit of problem getting ALL their power on the ground when excavating in heavier soils - the 4810 is 105 hp and just under 4 tons operating weight - a Cat 941/943 is around 12 tons and 90 hp by comparison. If you want a machine for the sand only, I'd recommend the ASVs, but NOT if you also want it to double for excavations in heavier soils and rocks. IMHO, that frame is too light for its grunt in rougher conditions. BTW, the Cat 941/943 will work very nicely in sand too but it does pay to leave the tracks a little slacker in sand or mud than on hard ground. I also understand that there are a couple of attach/detach backhoe set-ups available for crawler loaders. As mentioned by another poster here, there is NO one machine that is a total solution to all earthmoving/clearing needs. Excavators come close but have a handicap when material has to be moved any distance outside their working radius. IMHO, a track loader with 4-in-1 bucket and rippers is the closest you will get to an all-purpose machine. That same poster said he chose an excavator for his levelling tasks. He is welcome to it. We use Cat 941's, 943's and 953's for levelling house sites at the rate of around 2,000 to 2,500 average per year. We level to +/- 3/4" and often down to +/- 1/2", using laser and the track loaders do it far faster and easier than the two 20 ton excavators we have. The reason for the close tolerance is that many of our builders are using polystyrene 'waffle pod' sections under their concrete slabs and want the level base to set their pods on. We also use a 'spreader bar' held in the 4-in-1 bucket for a lot of our levelling work to speed it up even more. For the track loaders, this consists of a ladder style frame 13 feet by 4 feet with grip lugs welded to the top side to clamp the 4-in-1 bucket jaws to. It is held across the machine giving a 13 foot wide cut when trimming the site. This is usually only used for the final trim, although it will cut quite a bit in sand or soft loam. Most Bobcat operators around here also use a lighter version of this spreader bar with their machines for their levelling work and the same idea could be used with the ASV if you wanted to. Hope this helps. Feel free to email me if you want. The address is in the header. You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Jeff

01-05-2004 15:05:25




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 Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Deas Plant., 01-05-2004 14:01:38  
Clarification... I you re-read my post, I chose the mini for finish grading, only over a Cat/ASV. Trackloaders w/4n1, is a whole different ball game...



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Deas Plant.

01-06-2004 11:27:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Jeff, 01-05-2004 15:05:25  
Hi, Jeff. I don't know about you, but I'd take the ASV for trimming ahead of a mini excavtor too, especially with a spreader bar and even more so if I was trimming the way we do, to 1/2" to 3/4" tolerance. And, I'm not the only one. Almost nobody uses excavators around here for trimming anything except mud that nothing else can walk on and then they do it walking backwards out of it. Just my two cents worth which may not be worth much 'cos I've only been doing it for 39 years next month, not forty yet. You all have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Jeff

01-07-2004 08:13:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Deas Plant., 01-06-2004 11:27:45  
There's experience, opinion, and emperical evidence... Emperically, Mini's outweigh 40/1 all the ASV's or any skid steers I've ever seen at any job site I've ever worked the past 30 years. Matter of fact, about the only people using Cat/Bobcats are the landscapers. The current 1000acre development I'm working on is probably higher than that right now... Opinion, I'll still take a mini over an ASV for finish grading. I dont feel like I get the downforce if I'm back dragging. But thats opinion. For spreading, I'll take the ASV any day. Experience, you got me by 10 years... :)

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John R

01-04-2004 15:58:44




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 Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 08:56:32  
Forget the skid steer with tracks added. I have both. A 885 New Holland and a 2810 ASV. In sand the ASV will run circles around the skid steer with tracks. Usually if I am going to work in sand, I leave the skid steer at home. I also have two B-50 Yanmar excavators. Very reliable machines, but parts are expensive. But so are all parts now a days. To get started get the ASV and rent what you need. When the time comes get a mini excavator and you will be very happy. I recently rented an ASV RC50 and was very inpressed. It was smaller than my 2810, but would move around the job faster. Very good machine.

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justJeff

01-04-2004 16:12:40




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 Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to John R, 01-04-2004 15:58:44  
Thanks John. Do you think the ASV RC50 would be suitable for excavating foundation holes and clearing brush and lot leveling in the sand? Some of our lots have dunes on them and need quite a bit of leveling, but again, its all sand that digs pretty easily. I'm not overly concerned with speed. We build several houses a year, but in additon to scheduling and managing the construction I mostly do just the finish work now. I have a bit of time, and we have several lots that I could spend time getting ready to go so that we can hop on them quicker when we're ready. I don't feel the need to get in there and get it done with the speed that our sub does with a big excavator and a 450 crawler. We spend anywhere between 2,000-4,000 per lot on dirt work. Even if it takes me some time, we could save a bit of money and have the convenience of having the machine avaiable. I like the idea of renting a backhoe attachment when we need to do trenching for now. I'd really value your opinion on the ASV for clearing brush and digging foundation holes.

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Jeff

01-04-2004 15:03:00




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 Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 08:56:32  
I use a small CAT with the ASV system on it, and its sweet. But in my opinion, its really only good as a small loader, and light finish grading. I still think you are better off with a mini excavator, and a loader. Between the two you can load, do a reasonable finish grade, and excavate. There is no such thing as a single all purpose machine. Everyone has limitations and drawbacks. Thats why I have a loaderbackhoe, a dozer, and an excavator. Go to a jobsite, and how many bobcats do you see, versus mini's? Anywhere I work, its about 20-1. The bobcats come in for small loader work. just my opinion....

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Deas Plant

01-04-2004 12:43:06




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 Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 08:56:32  
Hi, JustJeff. If all your work is in sand, IMHO there IS only one choice, the ASV. I know this sounds a little crazy but I have seen an ASV 4810 eat a Cat D3 dozer for breakfast - without salt -- on sand. I personally thought the little jigger was almost incredible, to the point where if somebody had told me, I'd have doubted it. When I saw it with my own eyes. I figured either I was going crazy or I had to believe it. On dirt is a whole different ball game when the traction requirements change but on sand, I'd go with the ASV. Hope this helps. Happy tracking. You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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JimInOz

01-04-2004 23:20:38




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 Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Deas Plant, 01-04-2004 12:43:06  
I know nothing about skidsteers/ASVs...the only question I'd ask is...will the rubber tracks stand up to a little rough stuff (sticks,stumps,stones,brick rubble).No machine gets thru a lifetime without encountering these things.Rubber is excellent in light duty work,but expensive to repair in heavy going.Any ASV owners may like to comment.....



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justJeff

01-04-2004 15:15:44




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 Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Deas Plant, 01-04-2004 12:43:06  
Deas, I've heard they can do pretty remarkable things with the ASV's. In a perfect world we'd get a mini excavator and a small loader. For now, if we can get by with just one we'd sure prefer to. We are also developing some property on the other sides of the mountains where it's dry and somewhat rocky. How do you think the ASV would be there? I know where traction isn't an issue that the adantage of the traction doesn't make as drastic of difference, but do you think they would perform ok? The lots we clear are usually between 7,000-10,000 square feet, so not very large. The brush is easily unrooted. I'm thinking about renting the ASV or having it demonstrated first so I can see how it does and clearing the brush. I don't think digging the foundation holes with it would be much of an issue, but maybe I'm wrong. Jeff, how do you think a backhoe attachment on a tracked machine would do? I know it doesn't have the power or speed of a mini excavator, but our trenching and digging requirements are fairly minimal. I think for the foundation holes the loader would probably be faster wouldn't it? What about for clearing the brush,would you prefer to use a mini excavator for that? We have a loader on a MF35 that we could use for final grading, I suppose if the mini excavator would clear the brush better and handle the foundation holes okay that we could buy a mini excavator and use the tractor for the light material spreading and final grading. Any reccomendations on a brand of mini? I talked to a fellow with a Yanmar the other day and he said he wouldn't buy another one as the parts were very expensive. Thanks for the advice Jeff and Deas, it is greatly appreciated.

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Jeff

01-05-2004 11:39:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to justJeff, 01-04-2004 15:15:44  
We use almost exclusively Takeuchi Mini's. Either a TBO135 or 145, I prefer the 145's for abit more power. Get a quick change bucket and you can switch buckets in a few minutes. Just watch the pins, they get bent so keep a hammer, punch, and pliers around for changes. Remember you can use the mini for final grading that will do better than the loader. The loader is best for moving stuff about. Even light spreading is better for the mini, but takes abit longer. On the other hand, with the Cat/ASV, its so damned fast I was doing light speading at the speed of light.. :) But I still used the mini to final grade. The ASV system works fine in sand, mud, rocks, etc. Only downside was in heavy mud, the tracks would plug. Maybe its just the belting ours has, but its not great in clay/mud.

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bob

01-05-2004 21:41:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Jeff, 01-05-2004 11:39:17  
What happens in clay mud when freezing weather comes? On steel tracks, mud/clay freezes to steel & you are locked up until weather thaws or you build a fire beside the tracks (not an option w/rubber). But it seems like mud wouldn't freeze to rubber. Will top & bottom rollers go ahead & turn? Will tracks freeze to ground?



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Jeff

01-06-2004 06:49:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to bob, 01-05-2004 21:41:55  
Dunno... In seattle Washington, this doesnt happen very often... :) My excavator has rubber tracks, it doesnt freeze to the ground...



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bob

01-06-2004 09:38:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to Jeff, 01-06-2004 06:49:09  
any experience on snow? Get steel tracks sideways on frozen ground/snow & all the cleats become little sled runners & zippo! over the hill to death & destruction. I expect rubber would do the same.



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WV-331-man

01-06-2004 11:08:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked? in reply to bob, 01-06-2004 09:38:49  
Rubber tracks will suprise you in the snow. I had a 331 bobcat excavator rented for a mnth, as i am going into the excavating buisness. And used the 331 to plow snow granted the speed is slow but i could stand the slow speed sitting in a heated cab . I did slide some but on blacktop road shoving a blade full of snow i crawled right up 2 steep hill's , Turning is where it got tricky if it was two slick the truning track wanted to spin and or the braked track slid. But i never got stuck to the point i had to use the boom to get out of a jam .

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justJeff

01-06-2004 19:17:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tracked in reply to WV-331-man, 01-06-2004 11:08:47  
Thanks everyone for the opinions and advice. I am starting to think that the most prudent thing to do is to rent some of the machines and use them doing what we need to do and evaluate which seems to work best. I met with a new excavation sub contractor and am enjoying some better pricing, so that helps a bit. We're agreeing to do a minimum number of houses using their services, and they're giving us a good price. They use big stuff, a very large Hitachi excavator, and a 450 crawler mostly. They're only charging $325 to excavate foundation holes, and backfill. That represents a pretty good savings for us. I appreciate knowing about the extra stress that tracks over tires put on the drive chains. That certainly makes sense. We have the ASV video, and of course it was set up to make them look best, but the tracked machine did a LOT better than the wheeled machine in the muck, even when there were tracks over the tires. We own a farm on the other side of the mountains, and it's much more rocky, it sounds like the tracked machines might not be the ticket there. What is a decent older model used mini excavator (brand and model), and what would one expect to pay? Using one of those and then our tractor with loader on it for moving material might work okay. I've seen some mini's in the $7k range but don't know if they're any good or not?

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bob

01-06-2004 20:27:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. Tra in reply to justJeff, 01-06-2004 19:17:41  
for mini-excav. prices, go to yoderandfrey.com, on left side click "auction results",then click Oct. 30 Darlinton sale and go to item 300 & above to see models & prices in West Virginia area. For a much wider selection, see Kissimmee auction results over past 3 years at same site. You will be educated.



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justJeff

01-06-2004 21:32:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat vs. in reply to bob, 01-06-2004 20:27:50  
Thanks Bob. How many of the mini's ( of the manuf. that sell overseas and here) do you think might be grey market? I noticed a lot of grey market farm tractors. It looked like cat 301.5's with 5-800 hours were averaging about 10, Bobcat 320's 6-8k, Komatsu PC20-7's and PC50UU-2's 5-7k, and Yanmar B-27's about 6k. How do those prices seem? I'm sure they're much lower than what a local Bobcat or other equipment dealer would quote for one on their lot eh?

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Jeff

01-07-2004 08:19:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bobcat in reply to justJeff, 01-06-2004 21:32:05  
I see a wide range of mini's, but the Takeuchi's (135 and 145) seem the most common. See a few bobcat mini's, a fair number of Cat's and the PC50uu's. Prices, I dunno.



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