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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans

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Dozerboss

05-10-2004 20:30:24




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Have a 450B that's not pulling as strong as it should compared to a 450 with standard clutch transmission. There is no free play adjustment left in the clutch and, after looking over the service notes, the HLR had some seals replaced and a note by the technician that clutches were about at their wear limit. Is there any way to tell if I've got an engine clutch problem only? Would hate to pull the motor and replace the clutch, only to discover the HLR clutches are bad too and have to pull the motor again. Also, the winch doesn't work, no movement at the PTO shaft. How can I tell if it's a bad shaft or the engagement is not working properly? If it is the PTO shaft, does that mean I have to go into the HLR anyway? Not sure if I'm up to an HLR rebuild, not much dozer experience, just what help the shop manual is. Thanks for any input.

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jdemaris

05-11-2004 05:51:21




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 Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to Dozerboss , 05-10-2004 20:30:24  
I've got a question about your reference to a 450 with a "standard clutch" transmission as compared to your crawler with the HL-R. I worked for many Deere dealers over the years since the late 60s, and I've never seen a 450, 450B, or 450C that did NOT have an HL-R. If you have seen one, what did it have for a transmission? In regard to conventional dry clutches and pressure plates, the 450 series WITH the HL-R still has a conventional dry clutch and it CAN wear out - also is prone to getting out of adjustment. There is a threaded rod adjuster that affects both the dry clutch and the hydrualic pressure in the HL-R at the same time.

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Dozerboss

05-11-2004 09:05:42




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 Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to jdemaris, 05-11-2004 05:51:21  
Thanks for the response. They call it the constant mesh transmission in the operators book, the HLR was optional. Its in a 1968 450. You have to stop the crawler to change speed or direction--no shift on the fly. It was ordered by the Forest service and it looks like the only option on it is rock guards. They put their own roll cage on it and the blade as well, called the Dakota tilt dozer. 4 way hydraulic, outside mount. Dakota is out of business or at least I can't find them, last address Fargo ND. Put a new clutch in the 68 last year, it has more pulling power. The 450B will get stuck in 18 inch mud, and have to use the 68 450 to pull it out. I think they dropped the constant mesh and made the HLR standard in later models. The 450B has no adjustment left on the threaded rod to get proper free play in the pedal, Since the eng to HLR is a convential dry clutch it looks like it needs at least that. The service notes from the previous owner indicate they put new seals in the HLR and clutches were about at there wear limit. Anyone know if pressure tests would tell the clutch pack condition or just the condition of the seals?

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jdemaris

05-11-2004 18:42:38




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 Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to Dozerboss, 05-11-2004 09:05:42  
I worked on a lot of 2010 crawlers with the Constant Mesh trans but I've never one in the 450 - must not have been popular here. I thought the CS transmissions were awful to use - kind of like of Deere SynchroRange without the synchronizers. In regard to the HL-R transmission, it's one of best Deere ever made. We had very few problems with them (except for the class action law suit against Deere for taking off in neutral). They will wear out like anything else, but they last a long time. Most of the time, when an HL-R starts slipping, the problem is either low pressure due to the threaded adjuster being out of wack - or - the dry engine clutch slipping which is totally separate from the HL-R. With the threaded adjuster, often the nut comes loose on it. It's essential to get a gauge in the clutch pressure port and check the pressure, and if necessary, adjust the aforementioned nut. I'm not sure which adjuster you're talking about when you say it's out of free-play. The adjuster I'm referring to has nothing to DO with free-play. It effects the relationship of the mechanical clutch linkage to the hydraulic control valve for the transmission and is NOT near the clutch pedal. As I recall, there is a rubber plug in the clutch housing that comes out, and there is a threaded stud with 5/16" or 3/8" nuts on it (or maybe one locknut). When it comes loose, the pressure drops low in the HL-R and it slips. As you probably already know, the clutch pedal is attached to the hydraulic valve and a mechanical clutch. Half-way down is supposed to drop the hydraulic pressure in the HL-R, and all the way down disengages the mechanical engine clutch so the 4 speed range transmission can be shifted. I suspect the adjuster you mention is the one for free-play in the dry engine clutch.

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dozerboss

05-11-2004 19:55:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to jdemaris, 05-11-2004 18:42:38  
Yes, I'm refering to the free play adjustment for the engine clutch. My guess is its worn out since I can't get proper free play on the pedal. I haven't tried any adjustment on the HLR, after looking at the shop manual, I see the adjustment your talking about--right a rubber plug on top of the case.



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Steve

05-11-2004 13:18:17




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 Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to Dozerboss, 05-11-2004 09:05:42  
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Pressure testing will only give you an indication of seal and or pump condition. Up under the air cleaner there may be a short lever on top of the transmission clutch housing. If it is there then this is the PTO engagement lever. Some had them some don't. Make sure this is engaged otherwise your PTO won't work. If you determine this to be the cause of the PTO not working, then try winching something. If the winch works fine and will pull a load then there is more than likley nothing wrong with the main clutch. The PTO is driven by the main clutch and not the transmission. If you don't have the lever tehn your PTO should run continuously. Untill you push the clutch pedal that is.

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Dozerboss

05-11-2004 20:12:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to Steve , 05-11-2004 13:18:17  
Thanks for pressure testing tip. I didn't think pressure would help me decide if the transmission clutches are worn out. This 450B has a lever by the seat for the PTO. There is a note in the service record that the pto shaft is stripped, unknown if its at the clutch drive end. Does anyone know if you must disassemble the HLR transmission if the pto shaft must be replaced?



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jdemarisj

05-12-2004 05:32:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Trans in reply to Dozerboss, 05-11-2004 20:12:19  
I could be wrong on this since my memory is not the greastest. But, as I recall we had some problems with 450 series crawlers and 440 log skidders - both with the splines stripping on the PTO drive - which is part of the engine clutch setup. Of course, the 440 skidder with SynchroRange trans. is totally different from the 450 with an HL-R.



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Dozerboss

05-12-2004 20:38:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Tra in reply to jdemarisj, 05-12-2004 05:32:44  
I guess the thing to do is pull the eng, and inspect the eng clutch and PTO shaft. If clutch is good, then will have to go into the HLR. Like opening pandora's box. I noticed a site called little dozer in Canada that had low prices on clutch discs but after several tries i couldn't get any response to email. Anyone know anything about them?
Thanks to all who replied to pto shaft.



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G.Lewis

05-12-2004 05:50:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR Tra in reply to jdemarisj, 05-12-2004 05:32:44  
The PTO shaft couplings on both ends of the are prone to wear. I just finished rebuilding a 350B with a winch. The couplings on both ends were in poor shape and were replaced at about $45 each from DEERE. My main shaft also showed some wear but the new couplings fit fairly tight so I kept the shaft. It is easy to remove with the winch off. Just remove the three bolts around the output housing and pull the shaft. The couplings are the same on both ends and are held in place with a split pin. I worked on 440 skidders and saw the same problem there.

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jdemaris

05-12-2004 14:16:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and HLR in reply to G.Lewis, 05-12-2004 05:50:28  
Yes, but the again the 350 with the hydraulic reverser is totally different from the others - unless you have the clutch driven which is rare.
Winch is reverser driven, and the reverser case is often loose at the mounting dowells where it couples with the trans. case. It then works back and forth and takes out the splines on the coupler and shafts.



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GLewis

05-13-2004 05:09:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 450B Clutch and in reply to jdemaris, 05-12-2004 14:16:16  
You are right as usual, my machine does not have the reverser. I think it was called a "Loggers Special," simple and bullet proof. It has a full cage with sweeps, exhaust over the roof and the Deere winch. No need for a reverser when the machine spends most of its life pulling. It had a really hard life but the straight transmission and finals are in really good shape. Having to stop completely to change directions probably saved a lot of wear and tear. The high speed pulling didn't do much for the undercarriage and the like however.

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