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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

how difficult to run a dozer?

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rlee6

07-18-2004 09:21:04




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I need to clear 10+ acres, previously pasture land, overgrown over years with 4 to 5 feet tall (2-3 feet tall trunk) native palms, not many real trees, flat, sandy soil of Florida. Hiring side-jobber costs $1000 per acre. Renting a dozer from Lowes costs $1300 for 1 week.

Lowes rental person pretty much discouraged me from renting. He said dozer is very difficult to learn, and I might even hurt myself or the machine.

How difficult is it to run a dozer? Can I really hurt myself or machine? There are practically no tall trees and no rocks. And I will not be knocking down anything. Tracked or rubber tire? One easier than the other?

For your information: car is the only moving machine I have operated in my life. Thank you for your advice.

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Steve in SJ

07-19-2004 19:35:41




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 Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 09:21:04  
Don't forget to look up for what my dad calls dead man branches;Dead branches that fall when you start to push,they can hurt you and will mess your rental machine and you are responsible for any damage.



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kyhayman

07-18-2004 18:02:03




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 Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 09:21:04  
Only dozers I have seen at Lowes are the light weights. Check with Hertz (the car people), they have a heavy equipment division. I rented a 550 Deere for $1180 a week including tax, delivery and pickup, and damage waiver (I did have to dicker with them a little) wound up getting to keep it on the job for 15 days (but only the 40 hours for a one week rental).



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Billy NY

07-18-2004 14:18:15




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 Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 09:21:04  
I'd agree, learning the basic fundamentals is not that difficult, its honing the skills after getting some hours in the seat, that takes years in some cases, everyone is different. Learning how to use the blade, controlling material flow, but not over controlling your blade, having the feel for when the machine is nosediving in etc. is the key to it.

1. Safety Safety & Safety, did I mention safety LOL, kidding aside, remember it is a dangerous machine, more so if you do not familiarize yourself with the controls of the machine and know them well, if you don't practice safe operating methods ie; always look while backing up, lowering ground engaging implements when not in use, newer ones have good features, so that when you get off the machine, you can lock out the controls, so you do not put it in gear accidentally by bumping a lever etc. Just remember, you must be attentive, not intimidated by the machine, and know how to stop it immediately on a moments notice. Also, USE THE SEATBELT, at all times, if you ever fall out of the seat, things happen quickly. Also, although you may just be scraping the surface, clearing/grubbing etc. you should make a call to what is referred to here as "One Call" Call Before You Dig, for underground utility locations, one spark from a blade contacting a rock will ignite a severed gas line, even sparks from the undercarriage ( tracks ) can do the same, they can start forest fires in dry conditions. Trees are very dangerous, especially larger ones, like in the old days when dozers did not have engineered roll over protection structures, which also provide overhead protection. Even small trees in dense brush can jab you through a protective brush cage, so you have to be attentive and react quickly. There is more to safety than I'm covering here, but it's all about awareness and common sense, thinking/planning your moves carefully. You need to learn correct procedure and practice it, a good experienced operator can instruct you, and is the best way to learn.

Back to the work, clearing & grubbing is fairly easy, but an inexperienced operator can make a mess quick, and not be productive. The first thing you will learn is that when the blade engages the ground, its going to start cutting, if you try to take to much, the tracks will spin, more so in sand and hard ground, then you will lift up on the blade and you will ride up over the hump and then when you try it again, you will start a perpetual roller coaster effect, " nosediving " is another term for it, scallop effect etc. Experience with blade control eliminates this problem, and some machines will be prone to do this a little easier than others, that combined with an inexperienced operator will make this occur more frequently. It's just a learning curve, every dozer operator has gone through this when learning how to cut properly, after your good at it, its another sense, you can feel the machine nosing in immediately ( you feel it in the seat ) and make quick corrections.

Being that you are clearing and grubbing, just clearing the surface, you'll want to keep that blade just on top of the surface, in the sand, vegetation should pop out easily.

I've spent a lot of hours in the seat, have always enjoyed the work myself, remember learning many years ago.

I agree, not to put the contractors out of business, but rental equipment is a cost effective option, especially if you have the skills to run the particular machine, you get max. production, a finished job you like because you did it yourself, and a cost that a contractor cannot compete with, meaning, for 1300/week {does that include the Ins. Waiver?) + fuel you can get a lot of work done. I recently rented a CAT D-4G to complete 2 moderately difficult jobs, and it worked out great, the jobs came out great, the cost was unbeatable and I got a machine with 2.4 hours on it, never been used. I own 2 larger CAT dozers, but this job called for a nice little machine like the D-4G to be effective and get it done right. I took some nice digital photos, enjoyed 4 days in the seat, and got the jobs done right, on time, and cost effectively within budget.

If I was not that far away, I'd offer to come over and do the job for a fair operators wage, but would need air fare & some expenses to do it etc. ( enjoy the work that much ! LOL ) I spent many years in my career as an operator, which was enjoyable and allowed me to master a skill I'll have for a lifetime. Even paying an operator on a rental machine, you will come out ahead, compared to a $10,000 contractor cost, if you rented it for a week, paid the operator $1500, + fuel, it would cost you roughly $3000, operator makes a decent wage, job gets done right, and you save yourself $7000. Even if you decide to just give it a try yourself, remember some people learn fast and others never learn, as far as operating equipment is concerned, I've always believed either you have it or you don't! It's hard to say but to really screw that job up, I'd think you'd have to do it intentionally, LOL, even for a novice you could get it done, may be sloppy though and take you longer. If you were building a pond, dam, a foundation, building slab, road, or other gradework, I'd not recommend doing it yourself, even at rental cost, it could get expensive if you do not know what you are doing.

10 acres, light brush clearing and grubbing, won't take long, ( would have to see the job to confirm) but even with a small machine, good operator, it could be done quickly especially if its a dry site, just been let become overgrown, sand, no rocks, obstacles, or old building debris/fill etc.

Stay with a tracked machine, rubber tire will not be nearly as effecive, mostly all bulldozers are on steel tracks and will do the best job for this kind of work. You must be referring to another type of machine, not too many rubber tire bulldozers around, at least in my experience, sometimes people call all earthmoving equipment bulldozers, like the media, as a generalization I suppose.

Hope this is some help & best of luck on the job !

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TimV

07-18-2004 11:03:56




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 Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 09:21:04  
Rlee6: A dozer is not at all difficult to learn--basically you turn it on, point it toward what you want to push, and go! Of course, learning to run a dozer well takes much more time, but the basics can be picked up by anyone with the normal number of arms and legs in less than 10 minutes. What model of dozer does Lowes rent out? In the type of land you describe, any dozer of more than 30 HP will be able to do an adequate job of clearing without too much trouble. I don't want to oversimplify the job--a dozer certainly can be a dangerous, even deadly machine, but you're working in optimum conditions--flat land, no rocks, and no large obstacles or obstructions. If operating the machine yourself still scares you, you might want to check around for an experienced operator--they would probably be happy to run the machine for a reasonable wage, and then you wouldn't have to worry about hurting yourself or the machine.

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rlee6

07-18-2004 11:28:12




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 Re: Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to TimV, 07-18-2004 11:03:56  
Thanks, Tim, for the reply. I wasn't scared until the Lowes rental person scared me. And I wanted to hear from the experienced folks here if I had to be rightfully scared, if the Lowes person did the right thing for me.

Regarding the actual clearing, how should I do it? I mean the pattern of crawler movement for maximum efficiency.

I didn't ask specifics of the Lowes dozer since I thought the rental person didn't want to rent it to me. I will check back with them on Monday. Thanks.

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TimV

07-18-2004 20:00:00




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 Re: Re: Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 11:28:12  
Rlee6: I just got back to my 'puter, but BillyNY wrote pretty much exactly what I would have, other than that I don't have his experience! I wouldn't pay too terrible much attention to the Lowes rental guy--he may be a top-notch operator, but based on experience with other Lowes employees I'm guessing not.... If it were me and my money, I'd rent a dozer and go for it. I'd still like to know what kind of dozer it was, though--a Nortrack or similar baby dozer might have its hands full with even the light work you describe. They're mainly made for levelling out a couple of dump truck loads of fill in someone's front yard, not for land clearing. I'd agree that a D3 or similar is probably the smallest dozer for the job, particularly if you're new to dozer work. You might want to check with other local rental yards--a few more dollars paid for a larger machine will pay back dividends in efficiency, safety, and a better job done. Remember that one rule in dozing is that it's usually better to take two light cuts than one heavy one, especially with a machine that's marginal for the job to begin with.

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dave

07-18-2004 17:05:19




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 Re: Re: Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 11:28:12  
what kind of dozer does lowes have? Is it a real dozer or is it one of these light weight machines like a nortrac or a smitty overland dozer. these doezers are not worth there weight. they ony way 6500 lbs and are around 30 hp.

i would find a cat dealer in your state. find a experienced operator who will work on the side and I would rent a dozer from Cat. A d3 should be plenty for your work.

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rlee6

07-18-2004 21:40:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to dave, 07-18-2004 17:05:19  
Thank you, gentlemen, for your kind replies. I will be very careful, heeding Billy NY's words of caution.

1) I checked Hertz equipment rental web and found their location near me. They have JD 450 and 550 G-LPG, 70-80 HP for about $1100 week. I will have to add tax, delivery, etc.

2) Would someone kindly explain how CONSTANT MESH, DURASHIFT, and HYDROSTATIC differ? I understand HYDROSTATIC is kind of gearless transmission, easy to use. Is HYDROSTATIC the least likely damaged by an experienced guy like me?

3) I will also look into hiring experienced operator. The rental store may have pinups of business cards.

Thank you again.

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rlee6

07-18-2004 21:41:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how difficult to run a dozer? in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 21:40:12  
I meant INEXPERIENCED guy like me.



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TimV

07-19-2004 07:09:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how difficult to run a doz in reply to rlee6, 07-18-2004 21:41:45  
Rlee6: Without going into incredible mechanical detail, some dozers have a gear transmission, just like a "standard" transmission in a car, and others have a hydrostatic transmission, which operates on (you guessed it) hydraulics. This type is probably easier for a novice, as basically you push a lever or pedal forward to go forward, and backward to go backward. Typically, the further you push it, the faster you go. I wouldn't use the type of transmission as the deciding factor for which dozer to rent, but it can make a difference in how easy the machine is to operate. I also wouldn't worry too much about damaging the dozer--the entire design of a dozer is wrapped around the ability to push heavy loads of material reliably, and you're unlikely to damage it if you follow basic precautions like keeping the fluids clean and full and practicing shifting and direction changes BEFORE you load the blade up and start pushing.

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Billy NY

07-19-2004 11:00:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how difficult to run a in reply to TimV, 07-19-2004 07:09:06  
I think you'll find that the smaller CAT's, Komatsu's are hydrostat, I may be heavily experienced on the operators end of things, but not so on the mechanical desgin. Years ago, there were direct drive (like a standard trans with a dry clutch or oil clutch) then went to torque converter power shift trans. somewhat similar to an automatic trans. Then Hydrostatic,like what John Deere's had / have, been a long time since I ran a new Deere, 10 years. I ran a new 550 in '94 it was a nice machine, cut nicely, easy to operate, most of them today have joystick controls, I think you'll adapt to those joysticks easily, the CAT D-4G, was a dream to operate ( they're all nice when new!) so the D-3G would be the same, left joystick is forward and reverse, turn left, turn right, with a speed adjusting button ( like a volume control on a car ! ) the right is your 6 way blade control, the throttle is a knob that turns, you're foot controls what is referred to as a de-accelorator, push it down and you slow down,let up on it the throttle increases, you go faster and the engine runs at a full r.p.m. when released all the way. You'll want to get to know that pedal well. You may find pedal steer machines or ones that have left & right brake pedals as well as steering levers, but the ones the rental outfits have now should be joystick, & remember, wear that seatbelt, you can toss yourself out of the seat if you are throttled up and hit lever too hard when turning.

Clearing, just do it symetrically, one pass, then move over 1 blade width, make another pass, work neatly, plan your brush pile locations, push to them, Like Tim said, take smaller cuts, but steady all the way, not sure if you will be disturbing any annoying critters, like bees, and or snakes, when clearing you will find these kinds of things.

If Loews is renting these light duty dozers, which are unlike what the established manufacturer's such as CAT, Komatsu, John Deere, etc. offer, they will be a disappointment most likely, that D-4G was a powerful little dozer, as is the D-3, and or same size equal by another Mfr., better to have a little more powerful machine, than you'll need, if you do need it, its there. Also, beware of wet conditions, dozers do sink rather easily, so if its soft, get the LGP with the wider track shoes, better flotation, even these are not invincable, if an area starts to pump up water and it ruts up easily, you can get stuck, which means it will cost you $$ with another machine to get it out.

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rlee6

07-19-2004 20:13:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how difficult to r in reply to Billy NY, 07-19-2004 11:00:13  
Thanks, Billy NY. I wish I could have a cup of coffee with you and learn all the things you will want to teach me.

Thanks Steve, about the dead man tree warning. I remember reading about "widow maker" in another post. I am keeping the dozen or so large oaks.



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Billy NY

07-20-2004 03:49:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how difficult in reply to rlee6, 07-19-2004 20:13:57  
No problem, glad to be of help, and definitely watch out for dead limbs or dead trees, the vibration of the machine alone can cause a weak limb to shear off, I've got a giant elm at my place, that died, and has got widowmakers hanging all over it, needless to say I won't even go near it with a chainsaw now, will let nature do its thing !



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