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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4

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Mike Hamilton

10-07-2004 22:03:38




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I just got an Allis Chalmers HD4, it only has 500 hours on it, it was stored in a barn for 20 years or so. It runs like a top, but it has street pads on it, I want to weld cleats (bar stock?) on the pads, what should I use? I have had various off the cuff sugestions like use 2" U channel, use Angle Iron, and use bar stock like my neibour did. What ever the material I use, I need to figure out the height of the cleat, My ground is damp most times and sometimes I'll be in mud, the machine has a loader and a quick connect backhoe, I want the traction but don't want to absolutely destroy the ground that I run across, I was thinking about maybe a 3/4" raised edge...

Thanks

Mike

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Roy Suomi

10-08-2004 22:11:41




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Mike Hamilton, 10-07-2004 22:03:38  
Don't worry about destroying the ground.... I would worry about destroying final drives and steering clutches and other drive gears. When you are on a hard push with your loader and you have a full bucket of dirt, then you raise the loader while still traveling forward , the loader pushes up driving your front idlers down, forcing the tracks to " dig " in harder causing extra strain on driveline components. If you must weld on grousers, weld small ones on the front of pad.

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T!ROY

10-08-2004 21:11:53




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Mike Hamilton, 10-07-2004 22:03:38  
Do you want floatation or traction? Floatation would allow you not to sink into the soft surfaces you would travel on. Floatation is achieved by using a wider pad resulting in lower ground pressure, which makes your weight of the machine spread out on more area. Traction is optained by adding a higher cleat thus taking greater force to move the machine. Seeing age of machine you probably won"t find wider pads. My suggestion is if you think you need something on your pads to stop you from slipping in the mud. There is a 5/8" hex grouser available to weld on your pads. Because you have a loader I suggest to weld a grouser on the first and third grouser, inturn making you triple grouser a double pad, much like the CAT 53series. You will have to angle the end of the grouser bars to a 45 to make turning a little easier. E-mail me I can get you a supplier with bars cut length. you can weld on yourself with 7018 or equivalent wirefeed. T!ROY

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jdemaris

10-08-2004 19:18:58




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Mike Hamilton, 10-07-2004 22:03:38  
I was a Deere mechanic for over 30 years and we put dozer tracks on many crawler-loaders with no ill effects. It was a common request. It was usually done on the 350s and 450s, and your HD4 is around the same size (actually it's a little more machine than the 350 and a little less than the 450). Most of the machines we put dozer pads or grousers on were for loggers or quarrying machines. I did not experience any undue wear to drive-train components, but as Karen said - a loader with a bucket-full is heavy, and needs to skid when turning - and WILL tear up the ground with high grousers. I've got a Deere 1010 and a Deere 450 crawler loader and they both have dozer pads on them (been on for over 15 years). With the original "street pads" the machines wouldn't do much when the ground is muddy. You can go to the steel yard and order special "grouser stock" to cut and weld onto your pads. It is made specifcally for that purpose and is made of hardened steel. Weld it to your pads with a low-hydrogen rod like 7018. And to Karen - you mentioned knowing where to get parts for the HD4. Well, I've been waiting on parts for my HD4 now since early Spring (March to be exact). Your source said the snow needed to melt before he could get me some bottom rollers. Seems it ought to be melted by now.

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Karen

10-09-2004 04:19:02




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to jdemaris, 10-08-2004 19:18:58  
Hmmm, must be you didn't get the email I sent you back in July. Wondered why you didn't respond. One of those strange internet burps must have eaten the email. Anyway, what you were looking for has been sitting on a pallet in the driveway since the beginning of July. You might want to give a call.



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jdemaris

10-09-2004 06:11:56




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Karen, 10-09-2004 04:19:02  
I called several times since early spring (March) of this years. I was told that there were some usable rollers already off but there were better ones still on a machine, and the snow needed to melt in order to get them. I was assured they would be held for me. On April 27 I got a messsage informing me that getting "good help" was an issue. July 13 I got a message that the rain was now an issue with getting them off the machine. Then, on July 19 I got an email offering to sell me new Berco rollers. Point is, I can buy new rollers locally - but I've been seeking good used ones. I had a chance to buy an entire parts machine this summer but passed on it. Now I wish I hadn't.

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Karen

10-09-2004 07:22:18




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2004 06:11:56  
This is not the appropriate place for this discussion. You can email me or the parts source if you'd like to continue this or change your mind about wanting the parts. They were saved for you but will be placed in inventory if you don't want them.



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Mike Hamilton

10-08-2004 19:58:57




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 Re: Jdemaris comments Advice on type of cleats for in reply to jdemaris, 10-08-2004 19:18:58  
JD.. Thanks your words sound practical to me everything in moderation, I'm the same guy that picked up the AC4 with 500 orig hours on it... I was happy to get your comments at that time and I'm happy to hear them now.

Could you elaborate on your recommendation, I'm using the machine primarily in the bush and yard, mostly for leveling, moving small trees and general clearing, no hard packed surfaces, in fact it will spend 90% of its life pulling me through moist soil to wet soil to mud, I'm trying to fill and drain so the moisture is less.

I NEED TO KNOW UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, what height of grouser to weld on. I only took the machine into the bush for the first time tonight and its already stuck, how about 3/4 to 1" high, would that be ok as long as they can slip on the ground? Again are you saying that the fully loaded loader adds the weight which causes strain on the final drives when the grousers are too high, and when the machine is a dozer not loader you simply dont have the additional loader weight to strain the machine? Is this the difference? I guess it makes sense that the additional weight of a full loader pushes down on the Grouser track then makes it hard to slip and turn, please confirm if I understand. Thanks

Mike

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jdemaris

10-09-2004 06:02:02




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 Re: Jdemaris comments Advice on type of cleats for in reply to Mike Hamilton, 10-08-2004 19:58:57  
New grouser stock is usually 1" or 1.5" high. If you buy regular bar stock it will be soft steel and is a waste of time - it will wear and curl. Grouser stock is especially hardened for use on track pads. On the subject of track pads and crawler-loaders. Usually such loaders are intended for picking up sand/dirt, turning frequently, and dumping it somewhere - whereas a dozer is intended for pushing dirt. Often loaders are used in areas where you don't want the ground all torn up, and for that reason, keeping ground pressure to a minimum is an issue - whereas the converse is often true with dozers. So . . . considering a loader is considerably heavier than an equal sized machine with a dozer, sometimes an extra roller is added along with a longer track to get ground pressure down. In other machines, e.g. the Cletrac HG or OC3 crawler-loader, the final drives and sprockets sit in a different posistion than with the dozers. Point is, there are balance and ground pressure issues with these machines. In your case, I wouldn't worry about it. I put 1" grouser stock on my 1010 and 450 along with ice-bolts. The grouser stock works great for forward and reverse traction, but will NOT keep you from sliding like an ice-skate sideways if you hit any frozen ground. We had more clients/customers killed from crawlers sliding sideways than from any other type of accident. My neighbor, who had 40 years experience as an owner/operator, got killed a few years ago loading his Deere 555 onto a trailer with a slight coating of snow on it. Slid off sideways and landed on himself. I've taken some wild sideways rides myself. So, if you live in an area that freezes, add some bolts. Deere offers them as an options on all their crawlers, they are simply track-pad bolts with high heads on them. But, almost anything will do.

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Mike Hamilton

10-09-2004 11:07:11




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 Re: Great feed back, thanks in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2004 06:02:02  
Re: Great feed back, thanks



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CJ-not reserved

10-08-2004 12:22:20




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Mike Hamilton, 10-07-2004 22:03:38  
The reason they're flat is 'cuz it's a loader and you'll tear it up,like Karen said.Are they FLAT,like steel plate? or w/ 'grooves',like hoe tracks? Hoe pads are the double/triple Karen mentioned,the most it should have.They're called grouser (=cleat),and there are different styles for different machines and jobs. A true street pad is SMOOTH,like old crawler cranes, or rubber covered.I suspect you have low double/triple,probably look like worn out dozer pads to you.

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Mike Hamilton

10-08-2004 18:12:50




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 Re:CLARIFICATION Advice on type of cleats for AC in reply to CJ-not reserved, 10-08-2004 12:22:20  

Yes, they are flat I will inspect further tomorrow, I still don't understand why the loader can't take the addiditional traction from cleats, are the main drives weaker ? there must be some nominal amount of cleat I can put on there like 3/8 " square or 1/2" I am in VERY soft ground all the time and NEVER on gravel stone or pavement, I have only had the machine for a half a week and I'm doing a lot of spinning the tracks due to moist ground, what do you guys think I can do for a little more traction?

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Karen

10-08-2004 04:52:27




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Mike Hamilton, 10-07-2004 22:03:38  
I would NEVER recommend putting a high single grouser on a loader crawler. The double or triple grouser is what should be on there. A crawler loader is designed to carry weight and it must skid when being turned. If not, you'll put excessive wear and stress on the machine. Then you'll find out how expensive it really is to repair dozers. Many times I've seen guys do what you want to do, and none had good results. They were all sorry afterward. If you ever need parts, email me.

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Mike Hamilton

10-08-2004 05:52:59




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 Re: Advice on type of cleats for AC HD4 in reply to Karen, 10-08-2004 04:52:27  
Hi Karen, thanks for your feedback, ummm can you define the terms, I am new to Crawlers and don't know the diff between single double and triple grouser, I am only talking about adding some 1/2 to 1" flat bar, the machine will NEVER NEVER see pavement, are you saying that I shoudn't weld cleats to the track at all?,, I need some clarification I don't want to buy a whole new track so I thought just welding cleats would do, I'm glad I asked, also what is the relavance of crawler/loader vs dozer when it comes to cleats, are grousers the term for raised bars on the track or as I call them cleats or are they something special.

Thanks

Mike

ps do you have tractor parts too or just crawler

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