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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

backhoe and dozer question

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stevieandsam

11-23-2004 15:52:13




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just drove by a used equipment lot and i have two questions:
1. some of the backhoes have both parts of the digging arm as two straight pieces while some of the newer machines have the first part (the boom) actually bent at a 90 degree angle while the second part attached to the boom with the bucket on the end is still straight. why the bend, and which is better?

2. on some of the bigger cat dozers, the tracks aren't the traditional long oval but a large triangle. I'm guessing the large triangle type (is there a name for that?) allows the drive axle to be much higher in the machine making the transmission placement easier, but what is the real benifit of this configuration. also, i noticed this only on the big dozers, not the big track loaders. why not the loaders also?

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Charlie

11-24-2004 05:40:48




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 Re: backhoe and dozer question in reply to stevieandsam, 11-23-2004 15:52:13  
The one other advnatage that I see to the triangle design is that when you"re backin up, expecially under load, the traditional design tends to push the track under the rollers and any slack collects on the bottom. If it"s rocky and you"re turning too, that ncreases the chance of throwing a track. The triangle design keeps the track underneath in tension.



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catmandoo

11-24-2004 14:31:32




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 Re: backhoe and dozer question in reply to Charlie, 11-24-2004 05:40:48  
i've also heard that the (high track )as its called is supposed to clean out better,but as was mentioned i also think running the track over 3 sprockets will cause more wear then over the 2 ,i personnaly prefer the basic low track.



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Seann

11-23-2004 18:43:06




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 Re: backhoe and dozer question in reply to stevieandsam, 11-23-2004 15:52:13  
From what Ive heard the Cat triangle track is somewhat overrated. It does offer the advantage of keeping the drive sprocket out of the dirt and isolated from the direct impact of the ground. Plus it provides a better ride because the tracks use the "bogie" roller design. But overall, from what I've heard, they're overrated and were put forth by cat more as a way to distinguish itself from it's competitors and to offer a new and seemimgly more "modern" product. Thing is, that design has been around for more than 20 years now, and I don't think Cat has walked away (in sales or performance) from Komatsu and other makes who have retained the conventional track config. If it was really superior in overall performance, it would be self evident by Cat's total dominance over Komatsu and all other makes by now. Plus other makes would have switched to that design (or similar derivitive) years ago.

I even heard Cat may be going away from this design soon, and return to a conventional track design. Not sure if that's true, maybe someone else knows more about it. And I don't know why they don't use it on their loaders, I've often wondered that myself...maybe it's because the longer trackbase required on a loader makes the triangle track less suitable/adaptable? Plus it looks like more weight is up high, which would be a distinct disadvantage with a loader.

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Grant MD

11-23-2004 16:44:10




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 Re: backhoe and dozer question in reply to stevieandsam, 11-23-2004 15:52:13  
1. The backhoes are different for a few reasons. Different companies use different designs because of patent isuues and to create an edge on the competition. The angle is supposed to allow you to dig a little deeper in the trench, but i dont think they reach as far as the straight stick would. Also, they tend to sit a little further back from the tractor and i THINK that affects the center of gravity of the machine, though i'm not sure. We've always run the ones with the straight sticks.

2. The main benefit of the triangle design is that the drive axle and transmission has no contact with the ground. This puts much less wear and tear on the more expensive components of the dozer. And i think that it allows more flex in the tracks. Something along those lines anyway.
I dont think they use it on track loaders because it would make them sit up much higher.

Thats what i think. I'm no expert though.

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Deas Plant

11-24-2004 04:05:13




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 Re: backhoe and dozer question in reply to Grant MD, 11-23-2004 16:44:10  
Hi, Stevieandsam.
As Grant MD said, backhoes are made in different shapes by different manufacturers because of patent issues and trying to get an edge on the competition. Cat were using Case's boom design on their early backhoes and had to cease and desist when Case objected. There have been a few other incidences of copying and objecting over the years. I am not an expert on backoes either but I've run a few and most designs seem to have some strong points and some weak points. However, I have yet to come across one that stood out from ALL the rest.

The high sprocket drive on Cat crawlers and dozers is supposed to give several advantages. The BIG one is that it allows a final drive to be removed/repaired without breaking the track. Another is that contact between sprocket and bush is kept up out of the dirt as are the seals around the points where the drives to the sprockets exit the machine's main body.

However, I'm not sure about Cat's claim of longer life from this system. I'm yet to be convinced that any track system that travels around THREE idlers/sprockets will wear less than a system that only travels around two major curves in each rotation. Not only do the high-sprocket machines have that extra curve for the track to travel around but all three curves are of smaller radius than the earlier oval-track machines of the same model, thus increasing the arc of movement of the pin within the bush and giving more opportunity for wear. In my humble opinion anyway.

Hope this helps.

You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

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Short

11-24-2004 17:45:28




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 Re: backhoe and dozer question in reply to Deas Plant, 11-24-2004 04:05:13  
The balance is much better than the old style track frame. The pivot point is beneath the operator for greater balance of operation. Have had two triangle tracks and loved them both. just my 2 pennies worth. Short



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