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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

my first track loader

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Doug, Ontario

11-24-2004 17:06:11




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I have been thinking about cleaning up some fence lines and my woodlot and maybe making a few trails for horses and ATVs. I have been doing some of this manually and some with my farm tractor. To make my life a whole lot easier, I have decided to buy a track loader (hopefully with a 4-1 bucket).

What would any of you recommend as a great all-round dependable track loader. I'm hoping to keep it between $5000-$10000.

Thanks for any advice.

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Kevin2

11-27-2004 08:24:54




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
I just went shopping this Summer for my first crawler and everyone here has a very good points to make. I have a much better end result though. I looked and searched and in the end have a Case 310E. I made the decision to purchase this unit for the same reasons mentioned, namely repair work. I looked at 5 310"s and went with the cheapest unit I could find, knowing they would all need SOMETHING done immediately. One needed exhaust, another needed hydralic work, the next needed a starter and batteries. It seemed the only reason these units were for sale was that the owners had never maintained them and didn"t want to fix them!
The second to last unit was a dream come true. A 310F with less than 1000 hours, a 4-1 bucket, diesel, and winch. Even had a sunshield for only 6k delivered. This unit was clean and everything was operational. The wife said go for it, I drove it and pushed dirt. I didn"t buy it. (WHAT?)
Why? I don"t know anything about Diesels or Cases or tracked units or brake adjustments etc. I didn"t want to buy it and be surprised by a 2k repair. (although it probably was fine)
I bought a beat up 310E from a guy who had two and wanted the PTO from mine for his better unit. He played with my unit on his land and it ran good. He got lazy and decided to just get his money back before something broke. Sound familiar? Soooo, for 2800. delivered I have a Case 310E, 1964. I can put 2K in this unit and still have less in it than the beauty, because I still don"t know what will break! Lol! But, it has been run for 5 hours and everything still works. She"ll get a tuneup in the spring and we"ll see what happens! The gas engine will spin the tracks before stalling, and I drove all over muddy, water filled ground my tractor just sinks into, these things are the real deal!
P.S. That 310F may still be there, how close are you to Marquette, MI.?

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Doug, Ontario

11-25-2004 20:50:30




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
I just wanted to thank everyone for their words of wisdom. As I imagine with most things in life there are good and bad experiences. Right now I have a early 8n that runs like a swiss watch. So my experience with the older stuff has been good so far. Lets hope it continues.

I have considered a skid steer and have used them around construction sites. My concern is that they may not be powerful enough. Also, how is the stability? My property is quite hilly, with the occasional rock popping out of the grass.

Thanks again for all your comments/regards

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jdemaris

11-26-2004 19:45:45




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-25-2004 20:50:30  
My farm is in the hills and very steep. Only flat area around is my barn/shop floors or parts of my house. I've got a couple of crawler-loaders, but I must admit for most work - a good skid-steer will run circles around them. I recently dug out a foundation into a side of a hill and used a 753 Bobcat with a hoe and front loader. It is amazing how fast you can move dirt with it. Stability was not a problem as long as an implement was mounted on it. I did, however have some problems when switching. You have to remove the front bucket to put the front-mounted hoe on. A couple of times, on what I thought was relatively flatish ground, I took the front loader off and attempted to drive up to the hoe - and started popping wheelies. The machine needs weight on the front for balance. I also had a bad episode when the unattached hoe fell over one night. I had a heck of a time getting it back up. Only downsides I encountered were #1 - if the freshly worked up dirt gets wet - like after some rain or snow - forget it. The Bobcat was useless and would not go anywhere - just sat there spinning all four tires. #2 is ground clearance. Being low is nice since it's near impossible for it to flip over - but . . . I was moving a lot of dirt up a hill, back and forth - and after a few passes I'd get ruts in the road and the Bobcat would begin to bottom out. So, I had to keep regrading the road to use the Bobcat on it. Again, in dry ground it will outwork any of my crawler loaders. It may have a smaller bucket, but it works so fast it still moves a lot more dirt. The Kubota diesel engine is amazingly efficient also.

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John R.-IL

11-25-2004 09:54:40




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
CASE CASE CASE!!! What others have said makes a lot of sense. Have someone look it over real good before you buy. I recently bought a 850B case dozer with on 2600 verifiable hours on it. $20,000.00. Had a chance to buy another 850B with unknown history and 7800 hrs. for $12,500.00. Both were within one year of each other in age. Get the best you can afford and HAVE IT CHECKED BEFORE YOU BUY. One repair on the other machine and I would have 20K plus in it. Maybe spend more than you plan to and have a good machine you can use and resale. On the other hand I am a contractor and I am biased, but why not hire the work done and not have the headaches? I also have skidsteers and they will out manuever and out work a crawler loader of same size every day of the week.

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jdemaris

11-25-2004 05:44:38




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
Any machine can break, regardless of what you pay for it. I was a Deere mechanic for 30 years, but also owned and worked on many Cases, Cats, and ACs. This may be a regional thing, but in my area in central New York State, the best deals I've come across are the Allis Chalmers crawler-loaders. They were very popular here. If price was not a consideration, I love the Deere 450C and newer series with wet clutches and turbo, and high - low - reverse hydraulic transmission - but they go high. I rarely see a good one for less then $12,000. To the other extreme, I often come across Allis HD5s or 4s in surprisingly good shape, with 4-way buckets, in the $3000 - $5000 price range. The HD5 series has a very good undercarriage system, a Detroit Diesel engine, and parts are easily available. It later became the HD6, basically the same machine but with a Buda four-stroke engine. Later yet Fiat got involved. As for the HD4, its a size kind of between a Deere 350 and 450. Has an AC 200 cubic inch engine, but parts are not as easy to find as the bigger ACs. It later became the 652 or 653. Very good machine and I've come across them in very nice shape for under $5000. So, the point to all this is . . . if you are looking for a user for a low price, the best deals I see are the ACs - if you can find a good one. But, if you have resale in mind - you're way better off with a Deere, Cat, or a Case. If you're lucky, you might pay high for a good one, do your work, and sell it - and break even (or even make some money). But, if you buy high, and it breaks, and you have to pay big dollars to fix it - then you're screwed. I've seen it happen many times.

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Toothman

11-29-2004 11:21:11




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to jdemaris, 11-25-2004 05:44:38  
This is a query for jdemaris. Would you be available to locate and evaluate AC HD5 or 6 or comparable machine? Also any experience re AC HD16AC Dozer or comments?



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David in SC

11-25-2004 04:13:02




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
Doug, I do not know what part of Ontario you are in, but I lived in Mississauga for 2 years in the early 80's and really loved it. Very clean place with the friendliest people. Salmon fishing in the Credit River is/was great this time of year. Here is my story:
Like many others, I have 10-15 acres of woods that need cleaned up so I can someday build a pond. I set out to find a Case 450 loader, and did, a 450B. Bought it off eBay sight unseen. Mistake. Seller did not misrepresent the loader, I just did not know what questions to ask having never owned a tracked machine. The pads are paper thin. The rails are worn so thin that several have broken. Pins/Bushings have been turned so tracks are snakey and stretched. Sprockets are completely shot. Bottom rollers are almost non-existent. Adjusters were non-functional so 1" flat stock was welded to track frame to keep front roller pushed out, and when that became not enough, they welded in a bolt, or piece of angle, or what ever they could find. Motor did not run, but I got it running with new injectors. Blows steam, so I have not run any other than 5 minutes every 2 weeks to keep things lubricated. Am waiting to do an in-frame rebuild this winter. Head will need total re-work too from the looks of what I can see. Block has a repaired hole in it at the #1 cylinder so I assume it has thrown a rod at some point. May not be a big deal. Bucket pins/bushings were oval and sloppy. Tilt cylinders were in very bad shape due to lack of lubrication. All 5 cylinders had to be rebuilt and several hoses replaced. Hydraulic control valve gushed oil so I pulled it and had rebuilt.

So, as of now, I have 15,000 pounds of scrap steel. Yes it runs, but it cannot be used the way it is. I have had a ball working on it and have learned alot along the way. I plan to do the in-frame soon. I then plan to replace sprockets and start welding rebar to the pads to milk out that very last bit of use before I put new tracks and bottom rollers on. Remember, this is just a toy for me, so undercarriage reliability is not all that important. As of now, I have about $4500 in it. I expect to put $1200 in the engine including boiling the radiator. Then another $800 in the undercarriage to include sprockets, rebar and welding rods. Hopefully, I will have something I can use for minor cleanup/dirt moving. If I had been more patient, I could have found a comparable machine for $6-8K with 50%+ undercarriage and running. But heck, then I would have missed out on all of the fun. My advice: ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS. If you do not know the right questions, hire someone that does. It may save you alot of money.

Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving in Ontario. David in SC

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Jean Bammel

12-17-2004 18:24:22




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to David in SC, 11-25-2004 04:13:02  
David,

Your sound a lot like me except I got a lot better deal when I purchased my 450 Case Tracker Loader on E-Bay. The person I purchased the loader from was helpful,, but Like you I didn't know the right questions to ask.

He said from the first that there was oil in the engine oil, but that wasn't much of a problem. Someone had worked on the engine and somehow put the rocker arm assembly in backwards. A local mechanic quickly fited the engine. The real problem is the right track and like you I didn't know anything about tracked machines. My last trip back the Texas I got the track off and figured out what needs to be done. Also like you I am much smarter than before

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John Van Valkenburgh

11-24-2004 21:08:59




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
Doug,

I bought a 1968 model Case 450 about a year ago to clear some of the 10 acres of woods I purchased. The Loader (with 4n1 bucket) was $8500 plus tax. Overall I"ve been happy with it but I"ll caution you that if you are going to spend less than 10K on an older used machine (that has not already been rebuilt) you should expect to put another $2000 in it over the next year or so.

So far the work I"ve done has been minor. Rebuilding the brakes (which were stuck on or else I"d have left them alone). I re-wired everything. Replaced most gauges. Changed the non-functional generator over to an alternator. Replaced various gaskets. New muffler etc. Having run it for say 20-25 hours now its developed a lot of blowby on the engine. This means that I"ll be doing an in-frame rebuild in the next month. Approximate parts cost $675 when you count new fluids etc. I was hoping not to have to do major engine work, but at the same time I was prepared to be able to rebuild it if necessary. Its part of the gamble when buying an older machine. There was no way to tell that this was going to happen beforehand.

Overall I"m quite happy with the Case 450. Parts are available from the local dealer (although most have to be ordered and take a couple of days to get here). Parts prices are not too bad. The dozer is a little hard to work on, with cramped areas and heavy parts but not impossible.

Pick a machine thats big enough to do the job but not too big to work on. The smaller loaders use less fuel too, which will add up eventually.

The only thing I"ve heard bad about the John Deere 450 series is the dry steering clutches. I"m not sure when they dropped them but keep this in mind. The steering clutches are okay as long as they are used regularly.

Take your time and good luck,
John
1968 Case 450

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stevieandsam

11-24-2004 19:43:33




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
ok, before you ignore my advice because i'm telling you something you don't want to hear, let me tell you about my experience. i was in a very similar situation as you are. I have about 50 acres and straight out, i just wanted something with tracks that i could drive and have fun. I ended up with a big case loader (an 1150c) for the high end of the price range you are looking for, but spent way more time working on it than i ever did running it. ended up rebuilding the engine and a whole lot more. since i did the work myself, the money i spent was just parts but that gets expensive after a while. also, could never get anything done because i was always working on it. spent at least 2 hours working on it for ever 30 minutes running it, and that's what you're going to get with an old machine. face it, new machines in the size you are talking about are 60 to 80 grand, so what are you really going to get for 10% of that price? just how reliable of a car are you going to get for 10% of a new car price? right, a piece of junk. fianally got smart and dumped the big loader. for what i paid for the loader, i got a much newer skid steer loader at an auction for a reasonable price and eventually picked up a trailer to put it on. I also got a used backhoe attachment for the 3 point on my tractor and between the backhoe and the skid steer they're's nothing i can't do given enough time. i've picked up a set of tracks for the skid steer for when it gets muddy and am really enjoying it. In the above two paragraphs i just gave you 5 years of learning the hard way. I know it's tough to settle for something as small as a skid steer when you get a case of "dozer fever", but having done it both ways, i really prefer a newer smaller piece of equipment that i can spend 90% of my time running and only 10% of my time working on (instead of the other way around)that the parts are a whole lot smaller and cheeper when it does break (and it will break), that i can pull on a trailer with my pickup truck and do work for friends and family and not have it lotbound unless i rented a tractor trailer to move it, that sips diesel instead of gulping it, and that i can get a whole bunch of attachments for. I've built about a 2 acre pond with the skidsteer, and yes it would have been quicker with the big loader, but since the big loader was usually broke, if i added drive plus repair time together, it was probably the same amount of time to do the pond in total, just with the skidsteer i spent more time moving dirt (fun) than fixing an old piece of equipment (frustrating) also, i don't tear up the lawn around my house everytime i drive the skid steer near. anyway, just my 2 cents worth, which you're sure to ignore, as i would have 5 years ago when i just wanted something big to drive.

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Seann

11-24-2004 18:51:09




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I went through this same process exactly one year ago, maybe I can share some of my experiences with you.

I have a 15 acre lot that I needed to do some logging on, build an 800 foot (244 meters) driveway on, and clear a building/home lot on. To make a long story short I did a lot of research and soul searching, and came to the following conclusions:

I came away with the impression that the Case 450 loader would be best for what I needed to do. Why? Because it was big enough and durable enough to accomplish what I needed to accomplish (within a reasonable timeframe). Case's are second to none for their reputation of quality and ease of repair. And because JD's of similar size were more expensive to maintain (JD parts prices are renowned for their expense), Case machines are very well built and could be maintained/fixed using ordinary tools. In contrast, Cats need specialized tools that you either have to rent or simply pay a mech to come out and fix it for you (thanks to GeorgeMD and others for clearing that up). Prepare for BIG $$ to operate, own and repair a JD or CAT.

But where I live older IH crawlers were (a) more plentiful (b) cheaply priced, and (c) do not require specialized tools to maintain/repair. I had a hard time finding a decent Case machine, but I quickly found an IH machine that could do the job and was cheaply priced.

Without going into agonizing detail, obviously IH is out of business. Which means the parts and availability for IH machines is somewhat suspect. This made me hesitant to buy an older IH machine. But in the end the price was so alluring for this old machine, which was mostly all rebuilt that I decided to take a chance and go for it. I ended up buying a 150 loader (same thing as a TD9B Drott loader). To make a long story short I have run this machine for over three hundred hours since buying it last winter. It has been a great machine, very reliable. It has successfully built me an 800' driveway, much of which was digging out deep culverts, pushing over BIG oaks, digging deep pits and performed a whole lot of road grading. Plus when I first got it I did a bunch of logging and log towing...overall, no problem (other than getting stuck in the mud a few times), the machine has been awesome.

And although the only parts I've replaced on it are all the filters (tranny, oil, fuel, air, etc) and a few hydraulic lines, I've since found sources and workarounds for most anything. This is especially a concern considering that IH has (a) been out of business for years and (b) the age of my machine (1969) appeared to make parts availability a problem. But I've learned that as long as you are willing to do some legwork to find the parts you need (via the dealer, many new after market and used sources and via ebay etc), and employ workarounds (via talented machinists/welders like GeorgeMD) then you can keep these old crawlers going indefinitely (see the old IH redpower site if you don't believe it).

In short, if you buy an old machine (which you must do to satisfy the price constraints you specify), then you can definitely do what you need to do. Just be willing to go through the extra legwork that might be necessary in the event there is a mech problem...

good luck

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These forums are for tractor-related topics. At all times treat each other with courtesy and respect. Off-topic posts are accepted on a limited basis: No politics, religious discussions or topics that contain bigotry of any kind. These usually result in unkind words and take away from the friendly, helpful nature of this antique tractor community.

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Seann

11-24-2004 19:19:00




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Seann, 11-24-2004 18:51:09  
Here's a few pics of my machine in action. Thanks to Deas Plant also for the excellent advice on getting a 4-1 loader...Deas and GeorgeMD know what they're talking about...

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Thanks again to George and Deas Plant for giving me outstanding advice!

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DGH

11-24-2004 18:49:55




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 Re: my first track loader in reply to Doug, Ontario, 11-24-2004 17:06:11  
I have a 450C John Deere with 9300 backhoe attachment. Have had it for 6 years,and have only had to change a few hoses and some O-rings in the hoe valve body. Has been a very good machine for me. It is a bit rear heavy with the hoe on but it can be removed easily. If you find one the things to look for are broken bolts on the front crossmember to frame and track frame. lose or missing bolts in the transmission to engine mount and the same at the trans to rear housing, also check the rear frame to rear housing bolts. If these are all tight and in place the machine should be ok.

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