Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
hillbilly

12-07-2004 06:01:32




Report to Moderator

Now don't give me advice about a trackhoe....I have a loader. Have never dug a basement.

This one will be a walkout on the downhill side. Soft soil with a very few sandstone and clay.

Question:What do I need to do to make hauling out all that dirt a bucketfull at the time go faster?
How much wider than the actual house footprint do I need to make it for later waterproofing etc around the foundation? The deepest backwall is gonna be about 8 feet when finished.

Any other technique with a frontloader that will help me keep it level and simple.??

Thanks

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Leland

12-07-2004 20:04:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to hillbilly, 12-07-2004 06:01:32  
Also when back filling you may want to buy several loads of sand ,I have seen basement walls bust from the pressure of compacting clay back in and even that little 450 can crack a wall if you get in to close from ground pressure. and about a foot of washed stone around foundation on top of tile really helps keep basement dry, in real damp areas we have installed a sump pit at one outside corner to help move water away from building

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Grant MD

12-07-2004 16:42:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to hillbilly, 12-07-2004 06:01:32  
Billy NY Has a bunch of good advice. The rule of thumb we use is that if the ground has a downhill drain field, then we do exterior drain tile (thats what it used to be called, and our supplier still lists it as that). If the lot is all flat, then we do interior.

Also, to make seeding much better, separate the topsoil (usually the first few inches) from everything else, i.e. make it a separate pile.

Winter is soon approaching. We used to dig our own holes with a deere 450. Once the ground freezes, its gonna be HARD on that machine. the first 12 inches are going to take TIME. I dont know where you are, but on the east coast time is working against you very quickly.

We do 3 feet on the outside of the footer. Makes it much easier, but you can get by on 2. However, when you tar that foundation you will get much more of that stuff on your boots with a two foot work area than with a three.

We give the footer a few days before we clean out the hole. By that time its still soft enough to clean out all the concrete spots along the sides of the trench, but hard enough to run a case 580M on.

If you do preform, I strongly recommend that you hire professionals. They can form it, do the footer, piers and all in three days. If you want they'll come back to do porch, basement, garage slabs etc. It will be EXPENSIVE, but done right, fast, and you dont have to touch it.

When you dig and pour the footer, Dont forget your electric ground wire, and then protect it when you do the cleanout, because it will be easy to cut it and lose it.

Kinda gave you more than you asked for, but it might come in handy.

As for the 450, its gonna take time to get all that dirt out. Take your time, dont rush it, and pay attention to the weather for the week before you start. Sometimes the best way to make it right is to just work the dirt. Eventually you'll get it.

Good luck, and be careful. Tracks dont make you invincible. Lots of guys forget that.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Grant MD

12-11-2004 11:23:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to Grant MD, 12-07-2004 16:42:39  
Something I forgot to add. When backfilling, WAIT until the house has had some walls put up, the more the better. It allows the block walls to really get tied in together. A lot of times if you backfill all the way before the house is framed, you'll break a wall, crack it, or lose the whole thing. Its just a lot of pressure up at the top of the wall. We've been told that you dont need to wait with the preform concrete, but we do anyway.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Billy NY

12-07-2004 11:22:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to hillbilly, 12-07-2004 06:01:32  
In any event and whether the soil is easy or not, probably not the best choice of machine, but thats just an opinion. Your JD 450 is a crawler I assume ? Have ran the dozer version and lots of others as a full time operator. If that is so, at least you have the benefit of getting good traction, sounds like you are digging into a bank or a slope, not sure how level the site is, but you'll want to make your work area level for starters, including the stockpile area for the fill.

After clearing, grubbing and leveling, lay out the footprint of the building, not sure if this is a tight lot, or your on acreage or what, but if a tight lot, best to have your surveyor give you the lot lines and use those known points to locate the building corners. Once you locate the building you can use offset stakes so you don't lose your reference point and can re-establish the corners anytime, because you will not have to excavate where the offset stakes are. Check your architectural drawings if you have a set for the job and do the layout, next you want to find out the elevation to excavate to and make sure you do not over excavate. Bottom of footing elevation + thickness of footing then the slab thickness on top of that will be top of slab elevation in the basement. Of course your foundation wall height is also taken from top of footing and will determine how high your 1st floor is above existing grade or what will be finish grade around the building. Check and see how much of the foundation will be exposed and adjust to your liking. You can excavate the entire footprint ( really have no choice with a crawler loader ) to bottom of footing elevation and form out the footings. Best to strip the footings, lay in the foundation drain(s), inside the footing and outside the footing, place something like a Mirafi filter fabric and stone #2s or #3s crushed stone or whatever you have locally around the perforated pipe, (basically pipe with stone surrounding it and wrapped entirely with filter fabric if you look at in section) make sure to put a slightly larger diameter pipe through the footing so you can let the inside drain pass through the footing, try to pitch all the pipe to the place it will exit the footprint of the building to ensure that water will run out, it doe snot have to be perfect, but if sloped properly, water will run right out.
Now that the pipe is in, you have drainage in case it rains, on the east coast, in areas I have worked, excavated areas can become ponds with one good storm, so it's good practice to do this asap and you will have plenty of access to all areas around the footing prior to the wall being formed and poured. The inside pipe is an extra precaution and the filter fabric is just a means to keep your stone clean, this is how I would do it to get max. drainage, your conditions may not necessitate it, but around here silt can choke up the stone and reduce drainage capacity, clogging up the voids. Next layout & form the walls, say one month after you pour the footing, concrete takes 28 days to reach full compressive strength, then it slowly gets stonger for many years, not much more than the mix design though, so you should wait a minimum of a week, so at least you have 1/4 strength and use a pair of #4 or #5 bars continously through the footing, your drawings should specify. Reinforcing bar dramatically increases the strength. Once your walls are formed/poured stripped ( make sure all pipe penetrations, beam pockets, and any other items that are connected to the wall are coordinated into the formwork, it's much easier to form it out than chop it out ! Check your drawings carefully, highlight & locate all of these 1st ! ) you may have to wait the 28 days to apply waterproofing, damproofing etc., check the mfr. instructions, most products require a full cure to get a bond. You most definitely want to wait the 28 days prior to back filling or risk causing the wall to crack or fail.

Back to the excavating, once you establish where the building and work area is, you need to plan on where or what you are going to do with the fill, so locate the stockpile relative to the work and try and make a gentle "K" from where you excavate to and where you will stockpile, as you are backing out you should be turning so that when you go forward you go straight to the pile.
Soil, underfoot condtions, type of track pads, all contribute to the efficiency of the machine, relative to how fast you can dig, with a crawler, depending on the soil type it can be slow, especially if it takes a lot of break out force to get through it. Not much you can do to speed things up, if it's your only option, take your time, the harder you are on the machine, the sooner it will need repair. On that note, you'll want to make sure it is in good running shape, fluids are clean, changed, topped off, and everthing is in good running order, it will be working hard on this kind of work, grease those loader pins, 2x/ day is not overkill, run em dry and they wear quickly.

I would want at least 3 to 4 feet between the excavation wall and the face of the foundation wall, minimum would be 2 feet, also, if your soil is not stable, you should shore it up or excavate the banks at a 45 deg angle of repose, to prevent a collapse, and remember if you are going to be in the excavation with the entire machine, make sure you have an escape route, or that a potential collapse could not engulf the machine, just read about a guy who was using a dozer to dig a trench to repair a dam, opened up a wet pocket of slop in the dam itself, which then collapsed, the cab door was against the trench wall and he could not get out, and did not get out, when his wife came to look for him, she was standing right above where the machine was with the property owner, and they did not even know he was under the water that filled the excavation in a few feet from where they stood. Best to take a wide cut and leave lots of room, common sense and thinking out your moves usually eliminates bad things from happening, just remember there are no second chances, so plan it out carefully, do a dry run mentally or on paper, make sure you have a plan, it always pays off.

When you excavate, you will be increasing the volume of material by 15%-20% because it is no longer compacted when excavated, so your stockpile will be that much bigger than the excavated area. If you stockpile, and then plan to remove the material, you will handle it 2x, so if that is a consideration, build an area to get a truck in, with a JD 450 size machine, you'll need to build a ramp to get over the side boards of the dumpbody, but you will only handle the material 1x if you dig and load it out. If you will use the fill on site, plan out where you will use it and try and dump off as close to those areas as you can. Try to make your work areas as level as possible. I've spent a fair amount of time on Cat 955's & 977's, am very familiar with crawler loaders, you can make it work, but if you would like to keep the machine for a long time, better to rent something, save the wear on yours, I find that renting is extremely efficient around here, I can get a D-4 dozer for $375/day or a $420D rubber tired hoe for $800/week, you can do some serious work in a short period of time with these and the fuel economy is excellent. Not sure what excavators are going for, have not had to rent one, but even with shipping and fuel costs, you are way ahead, the job will get done, if yours breaks down the job stops. I do the lighter work with my own equipment whenever possible, areas of work that are not too stringent or hard on a machine, much less wear and tear to absorb. When you backfill, you should do it in 1 foot lifts and then compact, with a plate tamper or jumping jack, working your way up to the finished elevation, you may encounter settling and or voids if you don't. In any case hope this is some help, made a career in this area of work,and construction in general, so when time permits I enjoy helping whenever possible.

Good Luck!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John Van Valkenburgh

12-09-2004 04:40:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to Billy NY, 12-07-2004 11:22:21  
Billy,

Excellent advice! Thank you for taking the time to post. I'm going to be doing a similar basement here in NC in the next few months with a Case 450. I printed out your post for future reference.

I grew up in New Paltz NY and so I can appreciate how lucky I am not to have to dig in frozen ground in the winter. Any freeze here is only a couple of inches deep and does not usually last more than a week or so.

Best Regards,
John
1968 Case 450

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Billy NY

12-09-2004 05:28:09




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to John Van Valkenburgh, 12-09-2004 04:40:26  
The other guys added some good details as well, I forgot to mention stripping and seperating the topsoil, no sense in letting it go to waste by mixing it in. Best thing anyone can do with any project is think out your moves and make detailed plans,also have another experienced set of eyes take a look to catch things you forget, in my case, after doing many multi-million dollar projects in the construction industry ranging from 3 million to 140 million, you get a good feel for this kind of work once you complete some godd size jobs. I see a lot of people on the smaller residential projects getting into situations where things get mismanaged quickly, whether it be actual construction related problems, like scheduliing, sequencing, coordination, poor design documents, or on the accounting end, a lot of people could benefit highly from the construction management practices we use to build complicated projects like correctional facilities, high rise buildings, health care facilities,industrial and manufacturing within budget and on time etc. I hate seeing people get into trouble which always cost's time & money when things go wrong because they are not managed properly from the beginning.

I'm up here in the Alb. NY area, used to got to school with a Chris Van Valkenburgh from Averill Park N.Y.

Used to run a Case 450 for a smaller outfit years ago, seemed like a decent machine, never liked those little steering levers, but got used to the arrangement somehow, they seem reliable, we sure did a lot of work with the pair of 450's they had though. Good maintenance was the key to it. I bought an old Cat D7 with low hours on it to fix up and do some light work, hobby etc.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Cory Maupin

12-07-2004 10:51:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to hillbilly, 12-07-2004 06:01:32  
My basement guy told me 3' all the way around. He said you can make it less but you only make it harder on yourself. As for level try to get a spot on all four corners that is level then use that to guage from. if the middle is high or low you can fix that after the walls are up.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob/Ont

12-07-2004 08:54:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to hillbilly, 12-07-2004 06:01:32  
You need it wide enough to work in there laying the weeping tile around the foundation and not cave in on you, tapering the walls of dirt outwards will help once you get it dug out. Cut out the edges first, then take out the dirt in the center.
Later Bob



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Seann

12-09-2004 10:54:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: How to dig basement w/frontloader jd450 in reply to Bob/Ont, 12-07-2004 08:54:04  
This is a great post. I haven't had to dig a basement yet, but I've always wondered about the best way of going about it. Looks like there are some really good tips here, definitely printing this one out and saving.

thanks to all



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy