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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Question for JDEMaris

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lavoy

02-01-2005 18:10:20




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Your comment on the bore diameter of 1010 diesel and 2010 gas being the same got me remembering something. A gentleman I know worked for a Deere dealer when the 1010"s first came out, and he said they had a ton of complaints about no power/torque. What they did at the time was to put a 2010 deck and pistons in the 1010 block. He said they had to have the bottom of the block opened up somewhat to make it work. Did you ever hear of this? Could you put a 1010 diesel deck with 2010 gas pistons in a 1010 block without machining it, or would it be necessary to use the 2010 gas deck?
We are going to need to redo a 1010 gas sometime, and that would be the time to change it.
Lavoy

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jdemaris

02-01-2005 20:02:16




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to lavoy, 02-01-2005 18:10:20  
I've heard the same story but I've never actually seen it done. If you wanted to put the bigger bore sleeve deck in the small bore block, e.g. 2010 gas deck in a 1010 gas, you'd have to have a way of cutting the bottom bore and o-ring seats in the block and I don't know if there is ample casting to do it. As I recall, all else is the same - e.g. rods, crank, etc. Maybe? I don't know why Deere would cast different blocks if they didn't have to - they seemed to cut corners everywhere else in the 1010/2010 series. Where I live, I don't even know anyone I'd trust to cut the holes and o-ring landing true. Good machine shops have just about all disappeared in my area. Seems there's less stuff getting fixed - people buy new instead. When I worked at several Deere dealerships, we didn't do much experimenting since our work was guaranteed. We had enough problems doing things the "right" way. We used to have a mountain of old engine blocks, reverser cases, sleeve decks, etc. with all kinds of 1010s and 2010s to play with - but it's too late now - long gone. I'd like to know for myself what will work and what won't since I've got a 1010 gas crawler loader with a rear ripper. Nice little machine, but VERY underpowered - as were the 350 crawler loaders. I've wondered about doing the same thing, or just bolting in a 2010 engine if it would fit. I don't know if the end of the crankshaft is the same as the 1010. I've got the 1010 parts books, but don't have the 2010 parts books. If anyone wants to compare numbers for blocks, cranks, etc., post it here. Here are some 1010 numbers: 1010 gas crank is AT16055T, 1010 diesel crank is AT21049, main and rod bearings are the same for gas or diesel, rods are the same, gas 1010 block is AT15458T, 1010 diesel block is AT15752T, diesel sleeve deck is AT15761T, and gas sleeve deck is AT12215T.

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Lavoy

02-02-2005 09:13:33




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to jdemaris, 02-01-2005 20:02:16  
I checked all the numbers, and the only one that crossed is the AT15761, it is also the 2010 gas deck. Keep in mind that my parts book is a 1962 printing, so a later book may show more.
As far as machining the block, I know the guy said they had to take the block to a machine shop and have the bottom end "opened up" to take the 2010 deck. I am fortunate to have numerous well equipped machine shops here locally, and within a 100 mile radius.
Lavoy

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J. Schwiebert

02-02-2005 15:50:12




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to Lavoy, 02-02-2005 09:13:33  
I know a guy who a couple of years ago had a nice 1010. He was complaining of low power and he had a Deere combine which had a 2010 engine in it and he said it would bolt right up as the bolt patterns and length of the blocks were the same. Maybe I should check if he did it.



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jdemaris

02-02-2005 13:30:22




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to Lavoy, 02-02-2005 09:13:33  
I'm in a rural area in central New York. 20 years ago we had many good automotive machine shops here, but they're gone. One automotive shop left in the area, and I've had several bad experiences. For example - I dropped off four rods to get checked, and if needed, resized at the big ends. Standard procedure for a diesel rebuild. They ruined them. Come to find out they were NEVER calibrating their mikes. Didn't even have any mike-standards in the shop to do it. Then they gave me a hard time, because I told them they had to replace the rods. A while later, I brought down some pistons and asked to get the top grooves cut and shimmed. They told me that shims are no longer available, it's an obsolete process. I later bought the repair shims from Hastings and had an old retired machinist do it for me in his backyard shop. We do have a few big machine shops somewhere near, but all they do is contract and production work. Seems with the 1010 or 2010, since there is only one o-ring sealing surface, it should not be too difficult. But, it would take some setup time which can cost. Now, I thought about the idea more, of putting the bigger bore sleeve deck in the 1010 gas engine. Even if the machining was done, and all the parts fit, I wonder if there would be a vibration problem due to the bigger bore and increased piston weights. My 1010 book shows a different crank for the gas and for the diesel - yet the rod and main journals are the same size and the stroke is the same. I suspect the difference is larger counterweights to compensate for the bigger bore. Four cylinder engines are prone to vibration as it is - that's why many if not most have some sort of balancing besides the crank counterweights (like 450s, 2020s, 3020s, etc.). 3s, 5s, and 6 cylinder engines don't have the problem. I wonder if the 1010 diesel crank is the same part number as the 2010 gas - since they both have the same bore and stroke. But, there could be other differences relating to gas or diesel, or application that I'm not aware of. My parts book is a 1967 reprint - I'm sure numbers have changed many times. 1010 diesel crank is # AT21049 (subs for AT11002T and AT15257T). In regard to the block numbers I gave before - here they are with the subs: 1010 diesel block - AT15752T(number on block T17513T) (subs for AT13827T, AT14488R, AT15034T, AT15459T). 1010 gas block - AT15458T (number on block T16277T) subs for AT13824T, AT14486T, AT15033T)

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Lavoy

02-02-2005 19:33:34




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to jdemaris, 02-02-2005 13:30:22  
I have not had time to look it up, but I was told that the diesel block has 5 main bearings, and the gas 3. That would explain some of the difference in part numbers.
If the stroke was the same, and the bolt pattern of the head the same, it would sound like putting a gas head and pistons in a diesel block would be the way to go. 2010 cubes and more main bearings.
I don"t think I would want to get crazy with horsepower and end up damaging some spendy 1010 drivetrain parts, but just an increae in torque would be nice. I have a straight 350 gas, and it will sure hang in there better than a 1010 gas.
Lavoy

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jdemaris

02-03-2005 06:12:14




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to Lavoy, 02-02-2005 19:33:34  
Yes, the diesel does have more main bearings, but also has much larger counterweights. I'm wondering if the 2010 gas engine also has the large counterweights. As far as power with 1010s versus 350s - I don't know. I've got a 1010 gas loader here, and it's just as underpowered as a 350 diesel loader. But, the 350 is heavier. I don't think I've ever run a 350 gas loader. Back in the late 60s - an on, I remember the reaction we got from customers that had traded in their 1010s for 350s. Frequent complaint was that their old 1010 crawlers "had more snap" than the new 350s. I never noticed much difference, and maybe they were expecting a big power increase when they traded. 1010 and 350 gas engines are rated exactly the same horsepower - but the 1010 only has a 3" stroke whereas the 350 gas has a 3.8" stroke and more cubic inches - so it must have more torque. I have a 300 wheel tractor that has the 135 cube gas engine (same as your 350). It feels more powerful than my 1010 gas, but can't say I've put them on a dyno. As far as 1010 drivetrain components holding up to horsepower increases - with crawlers the drivetrain is basically the same with the 1010s and 350s - and Deere used the 179 c.i., 50 horse engine with it with the D series. That's bigger than the 165 cubic inch 40 horse 2010 diesel. That kind of power in an original 1010 crawler might not be so good for certain components, considering they used to crack transmission cases, clutch housings, etc. But, when those parts were replaced they got updated 350 parts. Early reversers are weaker when in reverse - but are pretty much the same when pushing forward.
So, who the heck knows? It's kind of funny, that now I'm even thinking of such things. Wasn't long ago we were cursing the 1010s and 2010s and couldn't wait to scrap them out.

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Lavoy

02-03-2005 07:25:34




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to jdemaris, 02-03-2005 06:12:14  
We have a gas 1010 that has had a complete rebuild, and on the dyno, it will do 27HP, and we have tried everything. Even pulled the front cover back off the engine to see if the cam gear was off.
The 350 gas has not been rebuilt, and will use a lot of oil if worked hard, but seems to me it dynoed 35 or better. It is a bare crawler, just a 3PT, but as fas as pulling a load, it is far and away snappier than the 1010 gas which has a power 6 way.
Lavoy

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jdemaris

02-03-2005 08:48:45




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 Re: Question for JDEMaris in reply to Lavoy, 02-03-2005 07:25:34  
My 1010 has a fresh rebuild also. That doesn't mean much when it comes to horsepower. I've found some tractors put out their best power when almost worn out. Considering how small the 1010 gas engine is, I would assume Deere lied about the horsepower specs. if it wasn't for the Nebraska test data. I've rebuilt MANY 1010s and 2010s, and when at the dealership, they all got broken in, and tested, on the dyno if they had PTOs - but I don't remember if they had low readings or not. I've long suspected that my 1010 does not put what it should, but I have no way of proving it. Runs perfect, just underpowered. It's a crawler loader; it's in 1st gear all the time unless going down hill. Going up a very steep hill, it barely has enough power to climb in 1st gear - without doing any work but pulling its own weight. And, it you want to charge forward into a pile of dirt and get a full bucket, it really takes some engine lugging. On flat ground, using the rear ripper on dense dirt, it can't pull with five teeth - not enough power - have to keep it at three teeth. If I was doing the same work with a mid-range 450 with turbo, I could be in second gear/low and spin the tracks all the day and the engine would hardly notice.

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