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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

How to move very large rock?

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David in SC

04-10-2005 18:38:49




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Hello,
I am in the process of digging a walkout basement and have hit upon a rock that appears to be about the size of a small car; at least the part I have uncovered is that large. Let's hope it does not get bigger. I was hoping to get this project done without calling in the heavyweights, as money is always tight. I spent all weekend in my 763 Bobcat removing the top 1' of topsoil and have begun to level the basement in spots. The soil is hard red clay with lots of rock. Most of the rock is what I call sandstone, sort of multicolor orange, black, white, and even some blue. This rock breaks apart very easy. Unfortunately, the large one is not the same type. It is much harder, and much larger. I am planning to move my Case 450B loader over this week and see if I can dig under it a bit to tell how large it really is, or to see if it even stops. I question if this size machine will have enough grunt to move it if I can even get behind it. It is in the front corner with only about 10 feet of working space behind it. My question is: Is there a way to bust this rock up without any fancy equipment? I was thinking of maybe a hammer drill and railroad spikes. Drive them in every 2-3 inches in hopes of splitting it. Or maybe a breaker for the Bobcat. Do they work well?

If all else fails, is a large excavator and a seasoned operator my best bet?

Thanks as always.
David in SC

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David in SC

04-14-2005 03:23:07




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 Found a product that may work in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Hi all,
I found a product called Dexpan that I suspect is what several of you may be referring to. I will give it a shot as soon as I get back at it. I have several hours of cleanup with the skidsteer before I can really tell where I am. And, just to keep things exciting, I ran a track off on my loader. Went over pre-dawn Tuesday to move it because I did not like where I had left it Monday eve. Was afraid my pre-basement would fill if the rain got ugly so I moved it out and aimed it downhill in order to back it up to higher ground. Right track was off the idler to the inside before I knew it. So there she sits. Oh well, nobody said it was easy. At least I got it out of the way so I can proceed. Time to break out the prybars and some blocking.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.
Having fun in SC.
David

Hey Leland, I will gladly pay you a 4 hour minimum if you will bring that Allis 41B over. I'll even wash it for you when you're done. Saturday good for you? LOL

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Leland

04-12-2005 18:54:43




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
there is a 41B allis sitting behind my house I belive this will solve your problem



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Charlie

04-12-2005 05:29:36




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Whether its a boulder or ledge, you might have very good luck with the water mixing material mentioned by some other respondents. I have used this to remove ledge to build a porch. One brand is called bentonomite (sp?), and you can get it shipped to you from the importer, Windy Ridge Corporation, Tamworth, NH (603-323-2323), which is where I"ve gotten it. You drill 1 and 3/8 holes with a rock drill, either compressor driven or a self contained gas unit, mix and pour the stuff in, come back the next day and it will all be broken up into manageable sizes.

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David in SC

04-12-2005 02:52:07




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 Thanks in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Hello again,
Thanks for all of the excellent ideas. I got the loader moved over last night and spent a few minutes digging around the rock that may be a ledge. Hard to tell what I am up against. But, no question it is more than my 450B will handle.

Rain comes in today so I will not be able to work again until probably the weekend. I will keep you all updated with my progress.

Thanks,
David in SC

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david - OR

04-11-2005 14:24:35




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  

Solid granite weighs about 170 lbs per cubic foot.

A rock the "size of a small car" might be 9 feet by 6 feet by 6 feet. (OK, maybe a small minivan). This is 324 cubic feet, and would weigh 55000 pounds.

Such a rock weighs 324 * 170 = 55000 lbs. Or 5 times more than your 450B. You can't lift it or push it. Even if it were sitting loose on top of the ground, the 450B could not move it even a fraction of an inch.

A John Deere 750 excavator (one of the biggest made) weights 167000 pounds, and has a lift capacity of 55800; just adequate to lift the rock under ideal conditions.

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seann

04-11-2005 09:26:40




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 sell it! in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Just kidding, sorta. I was at a rock quarry that sold various types of stone stacked on wood pallets. Most of it was "field stone" and a whole variety of other types of stone suitable for fireplaces, chimneys, patios etc. And they also had big boulders they were selling. These boulders were sitting on pallets and were probably around a ton or so in weight. The average price was about $500 for each boulder! That seemed odd to me, but people use them for landscaping, and apparently are willing to pay that kinda money for them. And lets not forget the pet rock from the 70's.

Anyway, if there is a way to get it to the surface and if you can figure a way to use it creatively for your landscaping, then maybe that's a decent use for it?

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Pete/ME

04-11-2005 03:16:51




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
First thing is to figure out if it's a rock or ledge. Of course if the rock is too big to move, it might as well be ledge. In either case, if you've dug around it and it doesn't wiggle at all, you might as well get a blaster. Not that expensive compared to the fussing around and the things you'll break trying to move a rock the size of a house. I built on ledge and just stepped the foundation around it.

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stressfree

04-11-2005 02:56:53




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
dave ran into the same problem.a small rock at the end of the pasture turned out to be 20 ton.scraped with my 450 broke 2 teeth.best advice is i called my neighbor that excavates.he looked at it and said my 450 would never touch it.he broght his excavator over and after an hour he got it to budge.rock could not be pulled out so he dug a 20 foot hole next to it and pulled it in.if you think its bigger than it can be dug,maybe you could move your basement over a couple feet.i have conglamorite.the hardest rock.ask someone to look at it first experence is expensive.

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John Van Valkenburgh

04-10-2005 20:36:04




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Hello David,

Thanks again for the pictures of the injector removal tool. I lucked out tonight and found a special "wrench" for putting cut-off wheels on my air cut-off tool. The tool is just the right thickness and just the right size to fit in the injector slots. I was able to use my little slide hammer with the two ears to get under it and pull the injectors. The all came out (eventually). After hearing all the horror stories I consider myself pretty lucky. They look in good shape except that the tips are carboned up.

Now about your rock. I remember my mother telling me about the time when my parents built their first house. There was a large rock (probably granite) that was uncovered in the basement. My Grandfather told her to uncover the rock and build a fire on top of it. Let it build up a nice bed of coals and the rock will crack. Apparently this worked for my folks.

I imagine the type of rock makes a difference. A sedimentary rock like sandstone would probably not crack but something with a crystaline structure to it like quartz or granite ought to crack under heat. Another poster suggested building a fire under the rock, getting it really hot and then pouring cold water on it. That oughta do it. The only problem you might have is getting to the bottom of the rock. I'd imaging building a fire along the sides of the rock would work pretty well.

I don't know if the 450 will be much help. It does not take much to lift the back of my 450 up in the air. Granted I'm missing the rear weight but still it may be a stretch depending on how big the rock turns out to be.

Let me know how it turns out for you. I'm getting ready to clear land and build a house with a basement. Lots of big rocks around here too. As a matter of fact there is a quarry only a few miles away. I may end up with the same problem as you.

Best of luck,
John
1968 Case 450

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motorhead460

04-10-2005 20:32:21




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Hi,if you can get a few holes drilled into it they sell this stuff you mix with water and pour into the holes,as it dries it expands and will break or crack the rock.I can't remember the name of the powder and haven't used it myself,but from what I have read about it on the net it is supposed to work pretty well.I think I have seen it for sale on ebay before.



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Sbogusta

04-11-2005 18:36:46




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to motorhead460, 04-10-2005 20:32:21  
My Friend is an explosives guy.
He uses hydrro plasti, I think it's called . It does just as you said. He drills a hole and fills with this stuff and it busts it all up. He also uses a water charge. He drills a hole fills it with water and uses a special gun like a 12guage covers project with blasting mat and fractures rock easily.



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NC Wayne

04-10-2005 20:27:54




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Either the drill and wedge or hydraulic hammer approach seem like they would work . The main thing is it'd be a time consuming job to get it broken into managable pieces. You'd probably need a combination of both to get it broken down. Rent a hand drill and drill holes every few inches along the line you want to break (basically perforate it like a notebook page) and then hit it with the hydraulic hammer along the line. Keep doing this til it gets to the size pieces you can comfortably handle. If that doen't work I've got a customer out of Lancaster that is a drilling and blasting contractor. He might be able to help you out or turn you onto somebody that can if you find you need to go that route. They typically do everything from the drilling to the loading and shooting, but I have also known them to simply go out and load holes already drilled by a customer, as long as they are drilled like they should be. That's something you'd have to discuss with him though as I'm just an independent mechanic that works alot for him. His name is Wayne Rea and the business name is Wayne T Rea Drilling and Blasting. His number is 704-361-9221, tell him Wayne Harmon told you about him. I know this can be an expensive route to take but the question is how expensive would it be in comparison to the price to rent all the other equipment you'd need to do it the other way. As far as safety he could tell you about that aspect of it too. I've been working on his equipment for nearly 6 years and his guys are good at what they do. They were the ones doing most of the drilling in Downtown Charlotte several years back for the new jail where they were having to go right up against the existing buildings. If it can be done, and done safely, they can do it. I hope this helps you out some and good luck.

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Don, BC

04-10-2005 20:18:45




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
There are special wedges for splitting rocks but I am not sure that they would work on a rock of the size that you are describing. They are called feathers and wedges or shims and wedges. They consist of two half round shims and a wedge that drops down between them. The shims are tapered so that the splitting force is near the bottom of the hole and the wedge is being driven down between two pieces of steel so there is less friction and more splitting force.

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Bob/Ont

04-10-2005 19:33:33




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 Re: How to move very large rock? in reply to David in SC, 04-10-2005 18:38:49  
Get the the dirt moved around it and when you see how big it is analize the situation. It's a bit close to the house for blasting, even Professional Blasting. If you can get a hole under it you could build a fire beneath it for a few days and pour cold water on it to crack it. If there is room dig a hole beside it and move it over out of your way.
Later Bob



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