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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

I'm going to run that D4D

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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 06:56:05




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Sorry to start another thread.

But in this thread: http://www.ytmag.com/crawlers/messages/59877.html

I asked about the D4D I've been interested in.

The salesman got back to me and said $11,000 is as low as he's "allowed" to go, but that I should make an offer and he'll run it past the financial guys. (I'm getting the picture they gave $7000-$8000 on it for trade it)

I'm going to go run it this Sunday before I decide to make an offer, I'm thinking of offering $8000-$8500.

It that still to high for a 1976 D4D with powershift? He's telling me 50% UC. They have checked it for leaks, and have freed up the brake on the right side. It's ready to run, although the small hole in the manifold would need to be fixed by me...

I've never driven a Dozer before, how do I check this thing out besides just listening to it run, and moving the hydraulics, and making sure it drives/stops?

Are there any simple checks I can do while I'm there?

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ETD66SS

08-15-2005 09:51:35




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
Thanks to everyone that offered me help, I'm opassing on this D4D.

Engine oil in the tranny fluid...

Just needs too much work.



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GaryMA

08-15-2005 05:54:53




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
Look in photo ads on this site. There's a D4D in Canada, new undercarriage and more....listed for 14,000



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Leland

08-14-2005 19:33:31




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
not trying to heckle you but you need to find an operator that knows these like the back of your hand so you don't get screwed over big time . And look at some jap dozers you can buy a larger jap one for less money and they hold up as well or better . remember when you buy cat you are buying a name and they rape you for service and parts .Don't be afraid to try a Komatsu or Hundi or case or even deere there is a lot better bargains out there if you are willing to look for them as posted already this old thing could turn into a money pit fast and you could spend 3 times as much as you pay for it in repaies fast a fool and his money are soon parted a wealthy man told me and he got rich being untrusting and was usually right .

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ETD66SS

08-14-2005 19:46:43




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to Leland, 08-14-2005 19:33:31  
My Dad knows an operator, he might come look at it with me.

I'm not afraid of Kamatsu.

Dresser dozers seem to be cheaper as well, is there a reason to be afraid of them?



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Leland

08-14-2005 20:17:35




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-14-2005 19:46:43  
not one bit as long as the machine has had proper maintaince ,dresser took over IH's line just look close at IH Td's and a dresser and they were puond per pound as good as most others . I know how you feel this is a big deal for you as it would be for me but take your time and look the right machine will come your way



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shoe

08-12-2005 20:15:30




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
If it's only got 50% undercarriage, 8500 would be
way too much for the cat. If you're talking pins
and bushingsturned or new rails, pads and rollers
, sprocket segments, front ideler, it's not worth that much. Price what it's going to cost to fix the undercarriage before you make an offer. It
might be a couple years down the road, but it is
big bucks. Just hate to see you get in over your
head. good luck, and it may be a good buy, check,
it out a litle more.

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John in Wy

08-14-2005 19:21:17




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to shoe, 08-12-2005 20:15:30  
Hi, you can check the sprockets by seeing if there are flat spots on the teeth if so they have life left in them. If they are pointed they are wore out. Feel up under the track rail and see if the pins are still round or if they have flat spots. Round is good, flat spots 1 is ok, 2 means they have been turned twice, not so good. I seen one sell in MT at auction for $14,500, a guy in MS said one went for $14,ooo at auction there. Good Luck, John

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ETD66SS

08-14-2005 19:44:30




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to John in Wy, 08-14-2005 19:21:17  
John,

I took some pictures, the sproket has flat spots, but the teeth are chipped all along the inside, lot of side wear on the sprockets too.

The pins look bad to me, I measured everything, but I don't have a wear chart for the D4D.

I'd take my offer of $8500 and knock off the cost of new sprockets & chains.

One top roller is a lot smaller than the other, but they almost look like 2 different kinds.

I'll probably pass on this, unless the dealer wants to get rid of it for $4000 or so, it's been sitting there for over a year... (they turn stuff around really quick usually)

I still have not heard it run yet, and the exhuast manifold needs to be replaced as well...

Thx for your help.

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MSM

08-12-2005 13:14:15




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
If you have never operated a dozer before,you should take someone with you that has,and has experience on a similar model. It may stop,start and steer to suit you now,but put it in the dirt for a week or two and a major repair could come up quick. This is not a farm tractor,the maintenance on a dozer is expensive. A full service should be done before using it. All filters,all fluids,especially the finals and lube all the fittings. That is an LGP machine,they wear undercarriage fast when used on hard ground,if it has 50% bottom left you have 5-800 hours before replacement($4-5000+),if it takes everything.Bear all this in mind when making an offer,it would be real easy to put that $8500 in it again if the trans,or a final take a dump.

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Muttley

10-14-2005 00:32:11




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 D4D Sprockets with Replaceable Sprocket Segments in reply to MSM, 08-12-2005 13:14:15  
MSM I own a French-made 1967 D4D LGP which I use for catfish pond digging, and have had to replace sprockets 3 times now. I would be extremely grateful if you could point me in the direction of a vendor that sells after-market sprockets with removable teeth segments, that will fit a '67 Cat D4d. As you know the original D4D sprockets don't have those removeable teeth segments, and my search of the net so far hasn't turned up anything relevant yet.

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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 13:20:49




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to MSM, 08-12-2005 13:14:15  
"if it has 50% bottom left you have 5-800 hours before replacement($4-5000+)"

Seriously?

So a brand new dozer only gets 1600 hours out of the UC before it needs to be replaced? (It has 3600 hours on the meter)

I will most certainly be putting close to that on this dozer digging this pond, for sure...



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MSM

08-12-2005 14:30:00




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 13:20:49  
The wide pads put alot of stress on the pins,bushings and rollers when used on hard ground,especially if they are dry pins,they also have a tendency to run out of the tracks alot easier as the wear increases.We get about 750-1000 hours out of a turn on the LGP dozers when run on hard ground or slopes,2-2500 hrs when run in the mud.The pins and bushings would wear out internally.Usually by the time the rails wore out the rollers and sprockets would be close.We always replaced chains,rollers,sprockets and had the idlers rebuilt. Running new chains against worn rotating parts usually wore the chains prematurely.Looked up an old bill (2003), D4D LGP that came out of the track shop was $6450.(all Cat parts) (new chains,bolts and pads,all new rollers,new sprocket segments,rebuilt the idlers, new wearplates,reseal one track adjuster and labor)

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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 14:37:54




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to MSM, 08-12-2005 14:30:00  
Thanks for the great info MSM!

Well, I'll look it over Sunday, take my digital camera and try to get as many good pictures of the UC that I can.

You seem very experienced with running dozers, if you don't mind, plz take a look at my pond project pictures (all flat ground, sandy loam & clay).

Maybe you could recommend a machine I should be looking for?

Would Jerry's D3B be an option for moving 9000 yd of soil over 3 months or so? (Not the only project I have, but it's the biggest earth moving project)

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Too Far Gone

08-12-2005 10:00:04




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
Ive learned from being around dozers all my life that when a salesman says rails are at 50%,they are probably really about 30%.Look at the pins that hold the tracks together,If the rails have been run long enough the rollers will have eaten into the pins.



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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 10:03:22




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to Too Far Gone, 08-12-2005 10:00:04  
"Ive learned from being around dozers all my life that when a salesman says rails are at 50%,they are probably really about 30%.Look at the pins that hold the tracks together,If the rails have been run long enough the rollers will have eaten into the pins."

So basically look at the "top" of the pins on the section of track that is facing the cround for wear?



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Too Far Gone

08-12-2005 16:03:47




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 10:03:22  
Yes,If they are up any at all there should be some rail left between where they ride and the pins.If they will let you run it,test it out a bit,turn both ways and hold it hard,look between front of the track and the machine up front while turning.If the machine moves a lot before the tracks do,then the A frame underneath is also needing a rebuild.



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JGarner

08-12-2005 09:28:57




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
Obviously turn with drive clutches, hard turns (spin on one track) with drive clutch and brakes, both directions and if you can try to push on something and dig with it. Angle blade and dig etc.

JG



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JerryD3B

08-12-2005 07:18:29




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 06:56:05  
i have an 86 D3B LGP with one thousand hours. The undercarriage is like new. Powershift, 6 way ten foot blade.Except for the paint the machine is almost like new. I will be selling in spring after I finish my projects. Around $17000. I am in Niagara county.



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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 07:51:13




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to JerryD3B, 08-12-2005 07:18:29  
So what's the difference in power between the 76 D4D & Jerry's D3B?



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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 07:42:11




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to JerryD3B, 08-12-2005 07:18:29  
Thx Jerry! I'll keep that in mind.



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seann

08-12-2005 16:20:11




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 07:42:11  
ETD - You can start educating yourself about how to gage U/C wear by downloading the IH track manual on this site:

Link

Also reading the rest of the site and referencing the other sites below can help you get started:

Link

Link

Link

And remember when you're measuring chain elongation (for pin/bush wear measurement) the chain must be tight (not slack) to get a good measurement. If the salesman said "about 50% left", hate to say it but he's almost certainly exaggerating. Plus when a seller says "yeah, its got x% left" that usually doesn't mean a whole lot unless ALL of the UC components (rollers, pins/bushes, idlers, front idlers, grousers, and rail height) have been properly measured, or at least visually assessed by a knowledgeable and unbiased person in the fashion specified in the first referenced website.

Another thing you can do is to fill the rollers with oil and then see if oil leaks out of the seals (it may take a day to see it coming out). Sometimes old roller's seals wear out and oil seeps out after they are filled, and/or are run dry for that same reason.

Good luck

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ETD66SS

08-12-2005 18:44:50




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to seann, 08-12-2005 16:20:11  
How do I determine if the D4D has LTS track system?

If it does, should I still measure track pitch by tensioning the chain?



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seann

08-12-2005 23:06:42




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-12-2005 18:44:50  
ETD - To the best of my knowledge the Lubricated Track System (LTS) was not commonly used on most crawlers, and I would strongly suspect the chains used on the old D4 you are looking at are not LTS type. Although my knowledge is certainly very limited, as I'm basically an amateur like yourself, so I suppose it is possible these types of track systems are more common than I think. The chain elongation specs that are provided at the referenced website should be applicable to the tracks on that machine and they should be tensioned before making the measurement as far as I know. If someone knows otherwise, maybe they can pipe up and contribute some more to the discussion, and for those who don't know the 'LTS' system pertains to sealed/internally lubricated pins bushings as opposed to the standard 'dry type'.

But considering the various websites I've seen do not mention LTS or other sealed/lubricated systems when providing their wear specs, I would suspect the LTS was an idea that had limited application and use for most crawlers.

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ETD66SS

08-13-2005 03:02:15




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to seann, 08-12-2005 23:06:42  
Ok, thx again for the great info seann.

I'm going to borrow the appropiate measuring tools from work today, and start taking some dimensions.

The chart you posted for the pins & bushings wear limits does not specifically list the D4D. Should I use the D4 wear limit numbers?

Is the chain pitch the same on all D4's?



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seann

08-13-2005 08:43:12




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to ETD66SS, 08-13-2005 03:02:15  
I don't know for certain if the specs apply to a D4D specifically, but I would strongly suspect they would. What I would do is take the measurement as specified and if it turns out to equate to ~25-50% wear (according to the D4 specs), then I would interpret that as a good sign that you're using the correct wear specs. Sorry I can't help more, but my knowledge is limited to experience with my own IH machine. One of the best things you could do (in addition to measuring) is to take a bunch of clear detailed pictures of all of the components and post them here for expert opinion. Plus if there's anyway you can take an objective expert with you to thoroughly evaluate the machine (including the UC), that's really the best strategy....even if you have to pay him $50-$200, it'd be money well spent.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

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ETD66SS

08-13-2005 15:00:36




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 Re: I'm going to run that D4D in reply to seann, 08-13-2005 08:43:12  
Ok, I just got home from the lot, and on the way home I inspected the UC.

I took all the measurements except the internal pin wear as I could not tension the chain.

Cat D4D:

Grouser Height:
Left Side - 1.900
Right Side - 1.812

Link Height:
Left Side - 3.641
Right Side - 3.609

Bushing OD Diameter:
Reverse Drive side Left - 1.940
Reverse Drive side Right - 1.904

Forward Drive side Left - 2.090
Forward Drive side Right - 2.063

Front Idler Flange Height:
Left Side - .797
Right Side - .803

Rollers:
Left Side - 7.765
Right Side - 7.752

Top Idler:
Left Side - 5.254
Right side - 5.678
(Yes, the left side is a lot smaller, see pictures)

The only data I have that seann gave me that I can compare is link height.

I get 50%...

Can someone help me out with the rest of the numbers?

The pins & Sprockets look shot to me, the inside teeth of the sprockets are all chipped up.

There is an excessive amount of side tooth sprocket wear, common for LGP's?

Please see the pic's using the following link.

UC looks pretty shot to me, but I'd like someone to look at the numbers if possible, along with the pictures.

Thanks.

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