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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

what crawler should I look for

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Bill Stephens

11-17-2005 01:11:45




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I have a New Holland LS 160 skid steer with a set of tracks. It has 47 HP. But I need to put in a drive ,skid 40 trees ( 30 inch dia x 20' long poplar) and put in a dam across a 40 ' ravine. I think a 75 hp crawler loader with 4 in 1 and a winch, or a crawler with ripper, would be better suited to these jobs. A JD 45OB perhaps. Any advice would be appreciated. Will 15,000 US $ do the job? Thanks Bill

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Case450

11-24-2005 06:10:55




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Bill Stephens, 11-17-2005 01:11:45  
Go as big as you possibly can. I was building a small road. I was cutting across a banked bluff. Lots of rock and lots of stumps. It took me about a couple of days to get about a hundred feet. My friend with a D6 came in and did the whole road in one day. didn't even burn a half tank of fuel. Parts are more for the bigger machines but the work you get out of them is worth it. Just my two cents.



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Bill Stephens

11-19-2005 18:04:20




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Billy NY, 11-19-2005 15:36:58  
Thanks for the advice. Does any other crawler mfg use the DT 466 engine? I have been looking for aftermarket 4 in 1 buckets have found only 2 so far. I can get a 6 way blade for my LS 160 skid steer. Will it do a good job of finish grading, if I use a crawler loader for bulk of the side slope work? Does hiring a contractor to work with ie his and my crawler working at the same time sound like a good idea from his point of view or a nightmare waiting to happen. I would be able to spread work out some time 3-5 years, but want a specific plan and schedule to finish in specific times.

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Billy NY

11-19-2005 22:43:34




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Bill Stephens , 11-19-2005 18:04:20  
I am by no means an IH expert, but am lead to believe that unless you found another manufacturer's tractor re-powered with one, which would be a custom "one of" situation, tgo my knowledege, IH would be the only one that would have a DT 466 in it and this is the first I've heard of that engine used in that application, which may demonstrate how little I do know regarding IH's/dresser etc. A skid steer is no doubt a versatile machine, but beyond speading loose material, and all the other tasks you can do with them, there is no doubt in my mind that attempting major cuts and fills on a site job of the scale you have described, would be a waste of time and could render that machine useless through hard abusive work. Spreading top soil and light shaping on the flats is not asking too much, but beyond that, it really calls for a crawler in my humble opinion. The results you achieve with a crawler loader on slopes could be maraginal if you are not an articulate and experienced operator, it puts you in the same category of dozers with straight blades, that have no tilt and or angle for cutting and shaping, you have to strategically plan how you will increase the tilt by using fill to raise one side of the crawler higher to get the opposing edge to dig in further, making your cuts more difficult to achieve, it can be done, but you spend some time on a late model dozer rental unit, you will park the crawler loader for this kind off work once you see the difference. If you have gentle slopes existing and you need to do minimal cutting, shaping, or clearing/grubbing, the crawler loader could do it, but if you have intricate, compound shapes in mind, might want to get the right machine for the job,like a D4G, or similar sized machine with a 6 way blade.

I have a lot of experience in the construction industry, my roots started in site development, and my instinct tells me, that if you hire a contractor under the pretenses you describe, it may not be the most equitable thing to do. When contemplating doing this kind of work, the main reason for investing in equipment and or renting is to buy this work a lot less than a contractor would price it or charge you at, basically you are doing it around cost, compared to the contractor, who must pay his operator, include depreciation of his equipment, 10% profit 10% overhead, + any other costs he may toss into his lump sum for specified work. You would be wise to identify the precise scope of work you want done, and include all particulars for the work, start finish durations for each work item, overall completion date, provisions for inclement weather delays, percentage of completion payment schedule ( pay for what is done in a given period of time, that you accept as complete - 10% retainage until the end of the job ). All of which needs to be contained in a contract to be signed by both parties. A contractor would really want the entire job, you may be able to negotiate what you need, say like your dam. To properaly construct an earthen dam, you must undercut the footprint of the dam and re-compact the fill to 100% compaction below the bottom of the dam and subsequently compact each lift of 12" of fill to the top or finish grade of the dam, so that it is impervious. You need a heavy vibratory roller to do this,and the right kind of fill if the existing fill does not work, not something you may want to outsource. Even renting these can be a pain, so you do the earth work and hire out a contractors vibratory roller, just for the compaction work, it still has to be coordinated, the contractor is going to want to have continuity on the job, meaning no sporadic breaks in performing the work, delaying; the completion of the work, payment for completion and de-mobilizing from the job, which ties up the machine that may need to go to another job. I would think to arrive at a mutually acceptable agreement with a contractor it could get complicated on a larger job, your costs will be higher as mentioned above, risk of ending up in litagation is always possible, it's a situation you may want to negotiate unit prices for and do specific tasks on time and material basis,( T&M ) a contractor may only agree to T&M scenarios to play it safe, at agreed unit prices. Doing it over time as you describe, certainly helps you do what you can afford when you can afford it, keeping you out of debt for the site improvements you would like done, do it all at once and it does not take long to incur large expenses to do earthwork. Hope this is of some help.

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seann

11-17-2005 14:58:03




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Bill Stephens, 11-17-2005 01:11:45  
How long is your driveway? If it's not that long, you're better off just having a logger deal with the trees (should be free, or you might even make a few bucks), and paying someone to do the rest. But if your driveway is long and you have other uses for it, then a tracked loader is a great idea. Try and get one with a winch and especially a 4-1. That's what I did, I bought a late 60's International 150 loader, 75 hp with 4-1 and have been using it on my lot with great success. You could get a machine like mine in great shape for about half of what your budget is. If you want to learn more go to the redpower site below and check it out. Good luck...

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Josh H

11-17-2005 09:29:27




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Bill Stephens, 11-17-2005 01:11:45  
I'd be real careful about damming up a ravine. I would contact the NRCS and see what they have to say.



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Bill Stephens

11-19-2005 17:52:10




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Josh H, 11-17-2005 09:29:27  
Good advice I think I will hire a local excavator to give me a plan assesment or to work with me, while I prep things and during the final phase Thanks Bill



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Pete/ME

11-17-2005 02:47:27




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Bill Stephens, 11-17-2005 01:11:45  
If it were me, I'd just sell the wood to a chopper and hire out the drive. $15k might get you a half-way decent 450, but you'd spend some time looking, and could easy dump another $5k into it for u.c. work. Unless you've other work for it (or just want one, which is how I ended up with my 350), I'd look at the numbers real close. Good luck.



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wstephens

11-17-2005 15:04:32




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Pete/ME, 11-17-2005 02:47:27  
I am hiring a consultant to design the dam,I have a friend. Phd geologist with USGS also, and am contacting state also. I am being very carefull. about this! I also have 50 + tree tops from adjoining property to clear out. The numbers highly favor buying a crawler. I do not want to overload the skid steer though. I have built an inverted horseshoe trailer to haul the logs out with to my wood mizer saw mill. OR JUST WANT ONE. WHAT SICK MIND WOULD DO THAT!!! LOL MY ex wife would never approve of that. Notice the ex part! Why do I pay taxes so some one else can go to the moon, and I can"t build my own road with my own dozer!!!! I think Ill buy a $ 20,000 one now !! Just which one ? Can anyone recomend a honest dealer and or mechanic ? I am in southern Indiana. 50 miles south of where 33 Idiots drive $ 1 millon race cars around for no good reason, On days I have to work at a job I don"t enjoy so I can pay takes so some one else can .... Make it $ 25,000

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seann

11-18-2005 11:54:33




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to wstephens, 11-17-2005 15:04:32  
You're opening up a can of worms when asking for a recommendation. But you have plenty of money to spend, so here's a few recommendations:

Cat 941/951/955 or maybe even a 977 (big)
Komatsu D31/D41/D53/D55/D57
John Deere 450/455/550/655/755 (have heard bad things about 555's for some reason)
Case 450/455/850/855/1150
International/Dresser 125/175 or even 250 (big)

My personal favorite/preference would be the IH/Dresser 175C loader w/4-1, which could be had for well under your budget in very good condition.

Mistubishi makes nice little loaders too, but I prefer larger units when given a choice. I would definitely get a ROPS (rollbar/tree cage) and a winch if possible. Also I would insist on a 4-1 bucket too. Cats require specialized tools to perform significant tranny/final drive maintenance if it comes to that, whereas makes like IH and Case only need ordinary tools. International/Dressers are almost always considerably cheaper, but parts availability generally is more of an issue because IH construction went belly up in '82 (sold to Dresser). Although, most parts are still available for newer machines. And many new parts are no longer available for old crawlers (at the dealer) of any make (including Cat), so be fair in the comparison when considering parts availablity for older machines.

Below is a website listing most of models mentioned here, good luck...

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Bill Stephens

11-18-2005 19:07:15




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to seann, 11-18-2005 11:54:33  
My first money making job was selling nightcrawlers,( my father loved to fish) so I had outside input. Besides Maybe that is why I want a crawler !! wow this is a great place for psycho analysis,well worth the price. MY budget will have to stay around $ 15,000. I think a doser to push with a 6 way will match up with my skid steer. I like the idea of a 4 in 1 bucket, but you can't angle the blade. How much is not angling a blade a factor ? A 6-way blade with a winch, and a blade rake attachment on the front,used with the tracked skid steer to load with seems like a possible mix. A JD 450 seems to be widely used, I have the stories of Cat parts costs of all types of equipment, so I am weery there. I think buying a machine and using it up to 1000 hrs in 4-5 yrs then reselling is what I am looking at. What % undercarrage should I look for? Are sealed rollers,idlers,and links important? I will be working on a side grade. I have read this is hard on Undercarrage. I will look more at case and International. I have a school bus with a DT 466 International What an engine. I want to stay from 9,000 to 15,000 # on the crawler I think, any suggestions there? Thanks

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seann

11-19-2005 07:53:53




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to Bill Stephens, 11-18-2005 19:07:15  
I would get the biggest track loader you can afford with a 4-1 bucket. A 4-1 does not angle and is not nearly as good as a dozer with an angling blade for cutting slopes, but you can still cut nice angled crowns and drainage ditches with a 4-1 with a little practice (I've done so on my driveway with good success). And with just about everything else you'll be much better off with a 4-1 equipped loader than with a dozer, the loader is a MUCH more versatile machine than a dozer. Digging out stumps, carrying fill and topsoil to one place or another, digging pits (for good roadbase fill), picking up stumps and shaking the dirt off of them and putting them in the burn pile, picking up whole trees and moving them around (including loading logs on your trailer), towing logs, pushing trees over, sloping high/steep road banks, loading trucks, etc etc etc. There's almost no end to what you can do with a 4-1 equipped loader. And I would get the biggest one you can afford, which will (1) work and stress less, (2) take much less time to do the same job than a smaller machine and (3) be more fun to operate, there's nothing more enjoyable than having an abundance of power at your disposal! And again, I would go with an IH/Dresser 175C loader with a 4-1 bucket. They've been making this machine for over 30 years, and there's a reason for that (it's still being made as a matter of fact). They can usually be had for considerably less than an equivalent sized Cat machine (i.e. ~30,000lbs/140hp). And it has the venerable DT 466 engine you mention as well, so parts availability should not be a problem. And if you shop around you should be able to find one of these machines for right around your $15k budget in decent shape.

Good luck...

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Bill Stephens

11-19-2005 20:39:40




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to seann, 11-19-2005 07:53:53  
E-bay has a 175 B crawler loader with 4 in 1 with a knocking engine. It has a 407 Turbo and powershift transmission. I have an excellent DT 466 does any one know if the 466 can me matched to this trans?



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Udo

11-19-2005 19:34:59




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 Re: what crawler should I look for in reply to seann, 11-19-2005 07:53:53  
Go to GSA Auctions and click on construction equipment. There is a 2.5 yd. Fiatallis crawler loader for bid with only 1500 hrs. Top bid is $13725. Seems like a good price if it doesn't go much higher. Sale ends Monday.



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