Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JCB Engine OIL

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
clover12

12-03-2005 13:17:37




Report to Moderator

I have a 1984 or 1981? JCB with a Leyland engine.I just drained the engine oil off it and it was that thick it hardly came out. I don't know when it was changed last but it must have been a long time!What I am wondering is if I should flush the engine with diesel or is that a bad idea? What should I do to make sure all the old sludge is out of the engine.Also I took all the filters off the fuel and the hydraulics is there any tips for putting it back in service, because I know I am going to have trouble bleeding it! A different question. The bushings in the arms for the front bucket where they mount on to the tractor. The slot for the grease to go around is cut all the way through, therefore the bushing can not be tight in the hole.One of the bushings is turned 90 degrees not allowing the grease to enter the bushing. Is this the way it came from the factory or is there a change in design? Why would it be cut all the way through?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Philscbx

11-13-2006 09:06:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL, ALL ENGINES in reply to clover12, 12-03-2005 13:17:37  
Ok everyone, This is how to change oil on any engine to last forever.

1. Always do it hot.
Fact:The only reason engines fail, is the garbage of what's left behind and mixed back in when it is hot.

I remanufacture aircraft, and some of these people didn't learn this as well and unfortunately fallen out of the sky.

2. You are correct in using diesel or any other solvent to flush out the engine.
But never do this cold, it will just flow over the top of the gelled dirty oil at the bottom with no benefit.

3. Now that the engine is hot as possible, do not shut it off till you have all tools and drain pans and spill clean up in place first.

Also analyze in advance the best position for drain. Get the machine in prime position. Even if you have to use jacks. Keep in mind, drain plugs at the case pans are never at there lowest point. The weldment in the pan for the fitting is still above the last bit of oil.

4. Here is the drain flush step.

Get rid of the oil filter first, so there is no possible way it can drain back into the pan internally during the drain.

Now that the last bit of oil has drained out. Now add the solvent, and it will heat up as it passes over the internal parts of the block to remove all traces of old oil.

Pour in about a quart in stages, and watch the drain as it comes out. You may have to use 1/2 gallon. The drain will tell you when of course.

When it come out clear, your done with solvent. I prefer using Naphtha. It's base closely matches the oil and mixes immediately. It's available at any builders supply.

Now using any cheap oil, your going to sacrifice it only to push out the remaining solvent.
You are now ready to close the system up and fill with the best oil. On engines that are now older, you have to make up for wear factors.
If it used 10/30, now use 15/40. If it's hot weather, then 20/50.

If you have winter issue, you still need to use a block heater to make it start easier and keep the moisture out.
Internal condensation in the winter causes any expose engine parts inside to corrode. I have photos that show all area above the oil level covered with ice frost.
As if you never came across a locked up motor before, this is why.\\ And then left this way for extended periods.

You do not need to spend the extra money for a second oil change just to clean the oil up. If it's done cold, your 3 steps backwards anyway.

Now check how clean the oil is now after running the engine and shutting down after warmed up doing it the way described.

There is one more step that can be used to make the whole process 10 times faster.
Fit a vacuum tank with hose that just fits the drain hole. With the engine hot, the oil will drain completely in ten seconds. Now ready for the next step.
As long as vacuum tank is not sucking air, and only fluid, you will conserve all vacuum for further steps.

When job is complete and oil is still warm in vacuum tank.
Release all vacuum in tank, now charge with air to 20 lbs, and invert tank into drain pan and all oil will exit tank and ready for next vehicle.

This helps keep spillage to less than a drop.
To speed up the filling process for your machine.
Custom make all plastic funnels and what ever is necessary to quickly get the oil in.
If the oil capacity is 2 gallons, then use 2 gallons jugs filled ready to use.

This keeps climbing repeatedly and maybe causing an injury of slipping off ladders or steps or all the nonsense of all the trash of quart bottles.

If the machine uses 16 gallons for complete service, then I build the rack on wheels to roll in place with 16 gallon drum fitted with ball valve and hose to fill the engine while I grease the machine.

Always Always pre-fill oil filters. The lack of 0 oil pressure during start up is critical to main bearings. Don't torture them.

Make sure throttle is set to idle before starting.

Use rubber gloves handling hot oil drains, and keep them clean of oil with ready rags.

Now listen to how happy that engine runs with fresh blood. You would not feel well either, a quart low, or contaminated.

All engines regardless if it's a lawnmower or a funny car need this style of care.

Have a Great Day
Phil
Mpls Mn

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
135 Fan

11-13-2006 11:18:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL, ALL ENGINES in reply to Philscbx, 11-13-2006 09:06:05  
No engine will last forever. You should use the recommended grade of oil for the temperature. If you went too long between oil changes and have a thicker dirtier oil, by all means use some engine flush. Not all oil filters can be pre filled. If oil is changed at proper intervals, there should be no need to flush it. Oil never looses it's lubricating ability. It does get contaminated. There is zero oil pressure for a couple of seconds after an oil change. If the engine is flushed every time it will wash all remaining lube off of moving parts and will cause wear because of zero oil pressure at start up. Wouldn't it be better to change oil at proper intervals and leave a film of the old oil on vital moving parts? The new filter would clean out any remaining contaminates. Yes the oil should be changed hot as it puts all the cotaminents in suspension so they drain more completely. Aircraft engines by law have to be rebuilt at certain intervals and be certified. It's no where near the hours a tractor or equipment engine goes unless it's a jet engine. I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum that are more than happy with the hours they have got out of their equipment without having to do all the steps you have indicated. It seems a little over kill to flush the engine every oil change and it washes lubricant off. Dirty lube is better than no lube. Dave

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Philscbx

11-13-2006 23:28:16




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL, ALL ENGINES in reply to 135 Fan, 11-13-2006 11:18:53  
Like you say, No engine will last forever, but this is based on the fact I have one of 5, a 55 year old M tractor handed down since I was a kid. It's never been apart, and before it dies, I will more than likely die before it does. That's forever enough.

People always make this mistake. Recommended oil is the least protection granted by a new engine specs. Until one understands how oil pressure is derived, you no longer can go strictly by what it said a few years ago. Your going strictly on theory alone with that thinking.

The engine now has different wear on all the critical bearings, and most people have never taken an engine apart to see the results close up.

You can't even remove the pistons of an older engine with out cutting away the ridge line below the top ring where it stopped at the top of it's bore. The bore is so tapered, that the travel down is making the rings on the piston wear out the lands they sit on. All engines get this way. But it can be minimized using the correct oil for it's condition

Oil pressure occurs for one reason. What the pump can deliver, and the resistance at each close tolerance bearing. As the bearings wear, this clearance is now larger, and now less resistance and now less oil pressure. Right?

You can readily see this with older vehicles with oil pressure gauges and now warmed up fully, and now at idle see the pressure almost 0. This is the results of worn bearings and pump. Nothing else to look at.

But one can increase this resistance simply by upgrading the oil a step at a time. There are modifiers one can purchase.
I've tried them myself, and they do work. At $18 quart, it proved it worked. But it's also temporary. This is a case where someone may have to save what's left of the engine to make it through the month safely in dangerous weather.
Not all farmers have money to burn 30,000 for another machine. We do what it takes to make them last beyond the norm with carefully taken steps.

One can not discount perfection if it always works to ones advantage.
Try building an engine to compete in drag racing. If you slack anywhere in process, you loose period. I did this for years pro-
stock all over the US.

Now lets clear up another misconception.
1. Flushing out old oil does not involve moving parts. All moving parts are out of view of the drain back ports in the block that go straight back into the pan. It was designed this way on purpose. You can view this flow with the pan off.

This Flushing process is not for those that have normal maintenance steps in place. Although they can be modified to their advantage.

This is for those who may have just purchased a machine in badly needed care. And need to process it just once in the most cost effective manner.

2. Pre filling oil filters.
For one, it's recommend by JCB. I just read the manual.
Once you have the filter pre filled, you simply pour off the less than 1/4 cup of oil if it's a side mounted application.

Now consider some applications I service that have 3, 2 quart oil filters. Go ahead and fire this one up without pre filling them first. More like a $20,000 mistake if done.

The old filter you took off spilled some as well didn't it. So make it spill into a controlled manner. One can, if fussy about it, use duct tape to tin foil to control the spill.

Usually the best way to solve this is to punch a hole to drain the old filter to a controlled capture. It's not rocket science. But why have a belly full of crap in the machine. Or have to some how clean up the mess with little access to the lower area in a cat.

You might want to work in there for other service.

3. Heres the problem with letting the oil filter do your job instead. On refill and run.
One, the oil has to go where first to get to the oil filter?
So why would you want the old trash to go into the oil pump and grind it up first on the way to the oil filter. The oil pump is the heart of your machine, no different than the one you carry around all day.

As for Aircraft:
Were not talking about aircraft engines at the 2200 hr mark for rebuild. You missed the point. I've had these engines apart on a regular basis at 100 hr marks. It's also the law.

The most common thing done is the owners change the oil cold.
The engine sat for up to a month and the dipstick comes out fairly clean.

Now remove the oil pan, and see cheese an inch deep from a year ago. This is why the rules are what they are. People don't know what there doing, so they make rules to protect some.

All oils break down in performance, not just from contaminates.
The modifiers get used up.
Engines with increased clearances will require greater flow to maintain the same pressure. Upgrading the oil can make up this difference.

The oil at the bearing has to have adequate pressure to keep the shock wave of the rod bearing from making contact to the crank.
It's a sledge hammer blow every power stroke.
It's the same difference if wearing a tennis shoe or bare foot.

Little oil pressure is like bare foot on sharp rocks vs high pressure and thick rubber soles. It keeps your foot from making contact.

What one decides as a care standard will make one last over the other. It's that simple. Same as humans.

Here's one more clue to flushing anytime.
If you just changed the oil, and it doesn't look clean ten miles later. Then thats your style.

The steps are not over kill, to get the engine to ones higher standards.
In fact, they can take less time it takes you now. A micrometer will prove it in the end.

Phil, Mpls Mn
where we have to get stuff done at 30 below and no whining.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
135 fan

11-14-2006 00:41:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL, ALL ENGINES in reply to Philscbx, 11-13-2006 23:28:16  
You indicated in your previous post that an engine should be flushed every time. You didn't mention only if it had sludge or was sitting for a long time. You can buy engine flush that requires you to start the engine for a very short time. I too have an old tractor that's never been apart except to get a new front and rear seal. The oil pan was like new inside. There are a lot of 40+ year old tractors still running that have never been apart. Hours and abuse wear an engine out not age. Manufactures want you to get the most life out of there equipment so do extensive testing to determine the best oil for the conditions it will operate in. If oil pressure is lower at idle is normal as most engines only require 7 lbs. oil pressure for proper lubrication. Too thick of an oil does not pump as easy on cold start up and can contribute to blown seals. On million dollar heavy equipment, regular maintenance is the most important aspect of long engine life. I'm up here in Alberta where it is common to go to -40 deg. or colder. Most diesel engines will turn the oil black within a very short time of an oil change. It does not mean there is anything wrong with the engine. In fact I had a very experienced diesel mechanic tell me it was an indication that the filter was doing its job. It has something to do with the detergents in diesel oil. Some diesels stay clean longer. It doesn't mean they are any cleaner. Some additives work very well and some people don't believe in them. Most engine wear is on start up. Proper maintenance at the right intervals will do the most to prolong engine life. Yes if you can fill the oil filter helps. However the filter is on the return flow of oil. Oil will loose viscosity but does not loose its lubricating ability and does not break down. Additives may break down but not oil. If it hasn't broke down in millions of years in the ground, how come all of a sudden it breaks down in an engine? I agree with most of your post but you make it sound like a lot of people don't take proper care of their equipment. They may take exception to that. Some people don't take good care as well. I felt you were making some pretty general comments and I was trying to clarify them. Just my opinion. Dave

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Philscbx

11-14-2006 08:10:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL, ALL ENGINES in reply to 135 fan, 11-14-2006 00:41:46  
I should of clarified flush every time.

I do flush every time, but my oil is not that bad. So while it's hot, I simply sacrifice about half a quart or more of oil to push out what's left. Not needing the solvent step.
Sorry about that.

I do see one wrong concept that needs attention.
But maybe others think this as well.

Oil filters are the first in line from oil pump on all engines.

You have to have pressurized, filtered oil going into main bearings, rod bearings, and cam bearings. The rest is secondary for lifters, and rockers, and valve stems.

Diesels and higher end gas engines will have squirt ports going through the rods to shoot up into the cylinders. This port is timed just as the piston is at the top of stroke.

One cool option is, placing custom mounted oil filters away from heat source. Now it's also an oil cooler before going back into the crank. As long as it gets the cooler oil first, that's all that matters.

The ones I have built have custom drilled ports I drill into the pressure port of the pump, and stainless steel braided lines take it to a Earls custom oil cooler, then back to feed the crank.

Oil protection falls off dramatically above 180 degrees. Now have too light a grade of oil and low oil pressure, and you start to hear the parts inside.

It's not a huge deal with cold start ups, if one lets the engine warm up a little. The oil isn't peanut butter. The check valve in the pump will always have oil ready to feed oil just fine. Any lag of the oil pressure light is just the crank filling all it's ports. The engine will be at operating temperature in less than ten minutes.

I think where it used to be a big deal, is before fuel injection.
The engine needed to rotate through many rotations before it fired up. The ice cold engine now has tighter clearance, and the thicker oil dragged the pistons slower.

But now one can't get an engine past 2 piston hits before it's running.

Where the problem lies is when I hear down the street someone just fired up the vehicle and it's 20 below, and racing the engine. I don't think we even have to go there, except with a 2x4 if it's our machine.

That's why oil filters have bypass valving built in, or they would burst if they become plugged. The one I just removed from a used machine had to weight 2 lbs.. From just trash inside.
Now that it has drained completely, I will cut it open to see why.

Some applications do have case drain filters, but only on hydraulic systems coming from the hydraulic motors to help protect down line valves.

Unfortunately one oil filter burst from pro stock drag racing here in Minnesota killing my good friend. Mr Hagen.
Causing the car to flip repeatedly at 160 - 200 mph.

From then on, the filter is left off on refill and the engine is cranked over to flush out the oil pump first before going into new filter. One can do this also with distributer out and using a drill motor to direct drive the pump, and then prime the engine using same on fresh rebuilds.

You can't blow engine seals with oil pressure. The inside of the engine crankcase always remains the same as atmospheric pressure.

What you feel when you open fill cap while it's running is the piston windage pulse. This is handled by the PVC valve and routed back into throttle body to mix in with the fuel.

The combustion process is sealed by the rings. The only way one could blow seals is by basic combustion of excess fuel in the crankcase. But very rare these days.

B25's and such had the option to add fuel to the oil to help get them going on winter days. The fuel evaporated out while warmed up.

Any seals leaking oil is just gravity of the oil against a failed or improperly installed, or dried out seal. No different than oil leaking out of valve covers. It's because oil is higher than the seal during drain back.

On crankshafts seals, I inscribe a spiral pattern on the shaft to steer excess oil away from seal.

That's all from here.
Phil

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ajk

12-04-2005 11:14:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL in reply to clover12, 12-03-2005 13:17:37  
There is such thing as diesel engine flushing oil should you care to use it,the CAV pump can be a SOB to bleed,best way is to warm the engine up first,clean the lift pump,fit new filters,bleed the back filter first then the front,open the two nipples on the pump,close the bottom one first and the top last,try to start,they usually do but then cut out,loosen the injector pipes a couple of turns and spin the engine over till fuel spurts out,tighten the pipes and it will start,all the bushes on the JCB are split and spring loaded,anyone that the grease hole don"t line up on knock it out and put it in where it does.
AJ

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
LINY

12-03-2005 18:11:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL in reply to clover12, 12-03-2005 13:17:37  
I have a 1400b hoe with a perkins engine and it was a pain to get it back running after i changed the fuel filter. There is a proceedure in the manual, but i did it like other engines I worked on! I wouldn't put fuel in the crankcase to flush it out. If it makes you feel beter just fill with fresh oil and filter and run it a few hours then change oil/ filter again. Have the old oil anaylyzed. Is your hyd filter on the firewall, a long one with magnets in the middle? I haven't seen the bushings on the loader yet. Did you ever adjust the brakes or replace them?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
clover12

12-04-2005 02:48:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: JCB Engine OIL in reply to LINY, 12-03-2005 18:11:38  
Yes the hyd.filter is on the firewall on the left hand side sitting in the seat.It is about 6 3\4 inches wide and about 9 inches deep I don't now if there is any magnets in it or not.No I haven't adjusted the brakes yet or changed them I just put all new brake lines on it though and they work find. Thanks for the advice.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy