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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Opinion on water in the oil again ??

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Punchie

03-02-2006 03:57:11




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HI Forum

Same old 2010 still, Teddy Punchie

Was talking to the 85 year young friend again yesterday about the 2010 crawler. I stop by to get a couple of PTO shafts, any way. Here's what he said. He is remembering a little more each time we talk. It has been started only about three or four times in the last 5 years.

Water in oil at about one cup a year, in fact he said he has never found more then maybe a little over a cup ??

Please aidvice about this. Earlier post said it was the sleeves. I was thinking that is not too much water if the system is full of antifreeze ??

Opinions welcome !!

Next question :

Oil pressure drops when she gets warm?

That sound like main bearing to me.

If you think, so advice on a ballpark price for them and having crank welded and fit and reground or a price on a crank that is useable shape.

Here again all opinions are welcome!!

Have a Good One !! AND Thanks !!

Teddy

P.S. Looking on getting it sometime in the near future. Have a few too many machine to work on now and that one is looking like a fall job.

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ENCS

10-03-2006 16:52:43




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-02-2006 03:57:11  
Is it water or antifreeze? What kind of climate are you in. I have seen water in those quanities come from condensation. I live in a climate where in the fall and winter it will get into the 30's and 40's at night and 50's and 60's in the day and if the engine is not ran for a long period of time you will get condensation. Have the water tested and see if it is water or antifreeze. The low oil pressure when hot I'd go with you on htat and say bearings.

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JDknut

03-04-2006 11:10:27




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-02-2006 03:57:11  
A little bit about oil in the water, as I have been there. A little bit of clear water can be "normal", it is condensate, and forms when the engine is started frequently and run for short times, not long enough to reach operating temps and vaporize off the water. Antifreeze can come in thru a cracked head or, if you are lucky, a cracked or pinholed oil cooler. (I say this in a relative sense, a porous oil cooler is no fun but a lot better than a head or sleeve issue). Otherwise, you're barkin' at sleeves, either bad seals (not unusual for Diesel 2010-1010's) or cavitation pitting, a problem with any wet sleeved engine. Either way, it is bend over and grab your ankles time, as you will be well-reamed for repair costs, especially with the infamous "sleeve-and-deck" of the 2010/1010 series, as these now tend to be scarce and pricey. Cavitation pitting occurs when the cylinder sleeve vibrates under the Diesel combustion and makes tiny bubbles (cavitation) that later explode and blast away some of the sleeve material or sleeve corrosion product. Eventually, enough bubbles will pop in the same place to blow a pit thru the cylinder wall. Internationals and some wet sleeve Deeres (mine included) were famous for this, even some of the parent bore IH pickup engines did it. Preventive action includes using a coolant filter/conditioner and/or an additive package.
excuse the long post, just my $0.02.

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Punchie

03-02-2006 23:07:46




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-02-2006 03:57:11  
HI Thanks

Bison, D.Andrews and jdemaris

Drop in oil pressure is very low when hot, he acted like it was low enough that he would shut it down.

Thanks again !!

Teddy



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jdemaris

03-03-2006 05:53:57




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-02-2006 23:07:46  
With that particular engine, hot low oil-pressure is usually caused by excessive bearing clearance. Very common to have 30-40 PSI when cold, and 0-5 PSI once hot. I've got a backhoe with a Detroit Diesel that does it now, but I've been too lazy to fix it. I put a special low-pressure gauge in it so I can at least see the hot oil-pressure. It reads 2 PSI at hot idle and 8 PSI at full throttle. It will need fixing soon. One trick many dealers use to do, is to take an old low-pressure Deere 2 cylinder tractor gauge - that has no numbers, just low to high. It is designed to read "high" with 15 PSI. So, when a more modern machine had oil-pressure problems, the low-pressure "cheater" gauge got put in to hide the problem. If the bearings are tight, you don't need much of an oil pump to maintain pressure. The later 450 engines have added problems since there are two balancing shafts that also must be tight. The oil filter has a bypass (two different versions), and I've never seen one that lost oil-pressure due to a clogged filter - I'm not even sure it's possible. In regard to the water in the oil, and some people not regarding it as a problem? Well, if you are sure that every time that machine gets started after sitting, that the drain plug gets pulled first and the water let out - well then yeah, fine. I find it hard to believe, though, that it will be done. You only have to NOT do it, once. Water separates from oil and collects at the bottom of the oil-pan. Once the level gets high enough for the oip-pump to suck in pure water - the main bearings seize or spin, and the engine is done for. I've seen it happen many times, and we've had many customers who chose not to fix it, said they'd drain the pan, they did not, and lost their engines. Keep in mind, also,that such leaks tend to get worse over time. A drop a day leak can change to a cup a day and you might not notice until it's too late. The older engines only have one black-rubber seal. The later or updated engines have three seals, one of them being silicone. The silicone seal is designed to expand the first time oil touches it and thusly, fills up any gaps. That is why there are usually warnings about NOT using oil to lubricate the sealing rings when installing, and to use soap instead. You don't want them swelling up while you're trying to install them. The 1010 and 2010 series never got any of those updates.

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D. Andrews

03-03-2006 09:57:08




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to jdemaris, 03-03-2006 05:53:57  
On the oil filter deal, what I have seen happen, especially on older engines that have had water in the oil is the by-pass valve basically rust shut, no necessaliry on this engine, but on others of same vintage. Once they stick, and the filter medium gets filled with water and sludge, starts blocking the oil flow, thus low reading, but, it likely is not that, but eisier to check than main bearings.

I too have a wd-45, and yes, you have to be very paticular with the bearings in those. I do mine with a finger nail file, each seperate and custom fit to make sure thier right, doesn't take but a touch and you loose oil pressure in those, but they sure run good when they are right..D.....

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Punchie

03-03-2006 14:54:29




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to D. Andrews, 03-03-2006 09:57:08  
HI D If you would when I get ready which is going to be very soon like the next couple of weeks. We are getting a barn roof and doing taxes right now.

I'll need some help doing this laping in the 45 bearings. a fast question for you if there is a fast question. I have the enghine out but still over the tractor. Question can this be done like this or should I place it on and enghine stand. One trouble and all my falt , the friend that I had the tractor at died, and I have to have it running soon. I Have to work on the enghine at a different place. Was hoping to work on it there but about how long and hard is this bearing job after I get the right ones, etc. Like 15 minutes for each or more like and hour, and about the rod bearing too.

Thanks and Have a Good One !!

Teddy

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D. Andrews

03-03-2006 18:47:34




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-03-2006 14:54:29  
Try this web site, you can down load pdf versions of the manuel for the 45, http://www.gmadden.com/WD-45/index.html

You are looking at 15min to 1.5hrs each, depending on how much fitting is necessary, if any. Those engines are really tough and take a lot of abuse. I will be around..... .....D..... .

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Punchie

03-03-2006 09:37:57




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to jdemaris, 03-03-2006 05:53:57  
HI jdemaris

Thanks Again !!

I think he would drain most of the water out , The biggest job he said he did with it was to clean up a logging trail some 1/4 mile long. He mostly pushed over trees and pulled bigger log to cut up fire would. He said it would set for a year or so and than may get used to move something or pul the grader he has. Used a D15 AC allot more for the smaller jobs. He got it in 68 after it was three years old. Said a contractor had it for the first three years and used it for Back hoe work, no back hoe on it after that. Do you think it is possiable to use one that much in three years to wear it out or as I'm thinking for a 40 + year out machine it has very low hours. By the sounds of it Wray only put 250-300 hours on it in the last 35 years.

SO I can use like a ac oil gauge they read around 15 -20 max down to like 3-4 on the low side.

About the bearings , should I look at them one at a time and , how would I see if they are tight, plastic- a -Gauge ?? I know how to see if the look worn or think I have a good idea. They should have a color change in the silver coating. Look like brass or copper bleeding through.

The reason I'm asking all about this is I got an ac wd-45 nice tractor and knew it needed bearings and thought is was and easy job and turn out to be a mess, Old AC are not like the IHC where you just order oversized right size an use them , if your get more than 3 thousands in the mains in an AC you loose oil pressure.

Thanks Again and Have a Good One !!

Teddy

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Bison

03-02-2006 19:59:28




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-02-2006 03:57:11  
1 cup of water a year, hardly worth bothering about. just loosen the drain plug and let it run out before you start the beast, and she will be fine. if she still manages 25 psi oil press when hot leave it alone if she still runs OK



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jdemaris

03-02-2006 05:33:06




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to Punchie, 03-02-2006 03:57:11  
With older Deere engines - with water in the oil - the vast majority of the time it is the single seal on the sleeve. As detailed in many earlier responses, Deere used only one seal per sleeve in the early sleeved engines - including 1010s, 2010s, 350s, 450s, etc. Deere later updated the repair parts for all EXCEPT the 1010 and 2010 series. In regard to hot-low oil pressure - why do you assume the crank needs to be welded? Perhaps it does - or ground undersized, but often new standard beaings, or slightly undersized bearings will work fine. I've taken many engines, cleaned up a scored crank-journal with emory cloth, and installed a .002 undersize bearing and with no problems. Naturally, you have to be careful with the fit and check for final clearance and out-of-roundness. It was standard procedure in our shop to install undersized bearings whenever possible into a worn engine. Deere et. al. sold rods and mains in standard, .002" or .003" undersize that could be installed with the engine in place, no machining necessary. In regard to the small amount of water in the engine. It will usually destroy it. All it takes is a small amount of water to get sucked up by the oil pump and sent to the main bearings - and it will spin a bearing and lock the engine up.

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D. Andrews

03-02-2006 11:41:01




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 Re: Opinion on water in the oil again ?? in reply to jdemaris, 03-02-2006 05:33:06  
Oil in water, bad news, need to find and correct that, or at very least, add sealer.

Oil pressure drop, different story. What you concider a drop and I concider a drop, may be 2 different things. It is natural for an engine's oil pressure to fall as the engine heats up, question is, how much are you dropping? Are you sure it is an actuall drop, or could your guage be malfunctioning? Try an external manuel guage and double check, and post your cold, and warm reading.

Next, and I am going to get ripped for this I am sure, but, no matter what don't weld and turn the crank except as a last resort. Any time you weld on it and turn it, it weakens it, even if done right, it still weakens the metal. Avoid it at all costs, if at all posible. The advice given about polishing and using very slightly oversized bearings, if you even need them, is great advice. but this may not be the cause of your loss in oil pressure. could even be the oil filter, being it has water in it.

Good luck

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