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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JD 450 rpm decays off.

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Chip A

04-04-2006 10:49:44

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Need help with my JD 450. Put it away making good power. Started it the other day, let it warm some and then went to use it when the engine rpm began to fall off. I kept creeping the throttle forward but it just kept dropping off until it quit running. Tried to restart...no go. Waited 20-30 min, it started and I moved it back to where I park it. On the move back, the same thing.. Engine rpm kept decaying until the motor quit. Two things.. The fuel valve under the seat is wide open and the glass fish bowl under the primary filter is full of fuel.

Any ideas.

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jdemaris

04-05-2006 05:59:04

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Regulating valve in reply to Chip A, 04-04-2006 10:49:44

You didn't mention which injection pump it has. This is a very common problem, I used to fix a couple of them a week out in the field. As long as it is NOT an early model with a CDC or CBC pump, and it's a later 450, or a B, with any of the following pump numbers - DBGFC431-2DH, DBGFC431-24AJ, JDB431AL2731, JDB431AL2727, JDBAL2475, JDB435AL2442, OR JDB435MD2802 . . . then it's most likely the pump housing regulator is plugged. When this happens, the engine will start okay, but then slowly lose power and finally shut down. Once it sits, it will start again, and shut down again. You can test it by removing the regulator valve fitting - or poke a hole through it. It is the little fitting that screws into the top of the pump and the return fuel line to the injectors hooks to it. It is two-piece, the actual regulator is the botton half with pipe threads that is screwed into the pump top-cover. It has a flare-adapter fitting screwed into it. Inside of it is a small spring and plastic ball. Just break through it and clean it out, or remove it, and run the machine a little without it - but fuel will run on the ground. What causes the problem has been discussed here ad nauseum. The pump has a plastic governor weight-retainer. It gets hard and falls apart. Then, little bits of plastic run through the pump and get stuck in that valve. If you pull the timing window off the side of the pump - the little rectangle with two slotted screws - you'll probably find a pile of stuff in there that look like mouse turds. If you've never seen a mouse turd - I can't help you. This same problem affected Chevy and Ford diesel trucks also up to around 1985, since they used the same basic pump. If you run the machine with the fitting removed, drilled out, or bypassed, it will run fine for awhile, but eventually, the pump will self-destruct. It may take months, but it will happen. To repair it, it will take a minimum of $50 in parts, and 2-3 hours of labor - to remove the pump, take it apart and fix it, and put it back on. To do that, you need someone who knows how to fix it, or learn to do it yourself, or - pay a very high price to a pump shop. If the latter, you probably will not find one that will do anything short of a standard, and complete rebuild (or exchange) for anywhere from $300 to $700. For reasons I've never understood, many people regard injection pump as some sort of secret science - when in reality, all it is an oil-pump with a few added controls. Keep in mind, if desired, the pump can be fixed two ways - #1 back to original for a minimum of $50 in parts, or for an extra $40 you can convert it and eliminate the plastic retaining ring. One more thing - 350s and 450s are also prone to having clogged fuel-petcocks at the bottom of the tank. It has a passage so small a flea coudn't pee through it. So, check that also.

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Chip A

04-05-2006 14:44:28

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-05-2006 05:59:04

Got the info on the pump for you after work tonight. It's a Roosa Master (Of course you already knew that...dah!) JDB431AL2731 S/N: 2769825

Do you think you can tell me where to get the corrects parts I'll need for that model Sir????

Thanks again...Chip

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jdemaris

04-05-2006 17:41:39

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to Chip A, 04-05-2006 14:44:28

You can buy the parts from any pump shop (if they're willing). We used to buy all our Roosamaster parts through Deere, but no more. The past couple of years, I've been using aftermarket parts from Spaco. US Diesel in Fort Worth Texas is a dealer and will ship to anybody. 800-328-0037. For your pump, at the least, you need the seal kit - it comes with all the o-rings, seals, and the new plastic weight retainer ring - if you chose to use it. The one kit fits all the DB or JDB pumps. It is also highly likely the brass-bushing in the drive end of the pump will merit replacement - otherwise you'll eventually get diesel fuel leaking into the engine oil. To get the pump apart, this is one special wrench needed. Deere used to sell it, or Roosamaster sells it as #15499. There is one screw that has a special fluted "Bristol" head, thus the problem - unless you already have a set of Bristol wrenches. Some people have ground down a torx-head bit and jammed it in, and made it work. Can't say I've tried that, since I have the Roosamaster wrench. So, at least, you need the kit #U24371 and bushing (called a pilot tube) U16320. If you need the new housing-regulator valve - you'll have to call and ask them for the number - unless you can still get it from Deere (I doubt it). Additional information is below. If in doubt, you can call them up. Or email me with questions.

www.usdiesel.com

JDB seal kit - Stanadyne # 24371 - Spaco U24371 $12.10 JDB pilot tube - Stanadyne # 16320 - Spaco U16320 $4.83
JDB metering valve
JDB pump vanes - kit 20803 - Spaco 09528

Updated governor retainer is U27984R $ 20.68 exchange for a rebuilt unit or
U27984 for the OEM part $ 36.40

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Chip A

04-06-2006 04:08:46

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-05-2006 17:41:39

Once again, I can't thank you enough for the help and all the good info.

Is there a place where I can get a parts diagram/maintenance manual for this pump?? Or is it so old that you just take pictures as you take it apart so you can get it back together..

Chip

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jdemaris

04-06-2006 05:54:12

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to Chip A, 04-06-2006 04:08:46

The age is not a factor. The same basic pump that was being used in the early 60s was still being used in the 80s - in tractors and cars and pickup trucks. Many tractor companies use the same pump and give full repair information in their manuals. Deere did it different. Deere put out a separate manual for the repair of injection pumps instead of including it with each separate tractor manual.
The Deere service manual is SM-2045 - it covers all the C, CB, DB, JDB, DC pumps and various injectors. Other companies give comprehensive coverage of the pump in tractor-specific manuals - e.g. Allis Chalmers HD4 manual, Ford 4000 (pre-64) manual, and probably many more. Case, IH, Oliver, and others use the same basic pump.

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Chip A

04-06-2006 09:31:30

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2006 05:54:12

This is probably going over the edge, but if I give you my e-mail address, could you scan/fax the appropriate pages from your HD4 manual that cover my JDB431AL2731 pump? chilyn@99main.com or home fax 1-860-376-2112. I'd be glad to reimburse you for any expense. If you can't, I completely understand.

Also, where can you buy the special wrench you mention. I already have the torx set, I just need the wrench.

Thanks again....Chip A

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jdemaris

04-06-2006 10:39:37

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to Chip A, 04-06-2006 09:31:30

If I WERE to copy something, seems it'd make more sense to copy the info from the Deere SM-2045. I could do it (actually, have my wife do it at her work-place) - but . . . there is a lot of data. Just the section for the DB or JDB pumps is 70 pages (both sides) with photos, that would be 140 pages of photocopying. The entire book is an inch thick - probably 200 pages. I don't know for sure because the page numbering is done in sections, and I can't tell how many pages there are by the page numbers. It would behoove you to just buy a reprint of the Deere manual. There's a guy that's been selling them on Ebay for a long time, one by one. There's one for sale right now, but I'm sure he has others - since he's always relisting. I don't know how legal they are, nor do I care. I do know that Deere is real picky about allowing reprints. He usually gets around $28 for them - it's a bargain. It is Ebay listing # 7607150800 and the URL link is at the bottom of this message if you want to copy and paste it into your web-browser. In regard to the tool - try Deere first - it's worth a phone call. If they no longer sell it, try the injection shop in Texas. Also, there are many tool places that sell Bristol wrench sets - but "set" is the operative word. I do NOT know where to buy just one wrench other than Stanadyne/Roosmaster - or perhaps from Deere.
You can also call the Bristol Wrench Company - they probably make the bits for Roosamaster. Their website - with photos is at:>Link

Here's the Ebay link for the Deere manual reprint

http://cgi.ebay.ca/JOHN-DEERE-FUEL-INJECTION-PUMPS-SERVICE-MANUAL-SM-2045_W0QQitemZ7607150800QQcategoryZ56983QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Chip A

04-06-2006 12:27:44

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2006 10:39:37

Thank you again...I agree 100%, 140 pages is way too much. I'll go to the local Deere dealer where I've gotten most of my "other" parts/filters and see if I can still get the manual. Even $60.00 bucks for the manual and $20.00 for the tool plus the parts kits etc will still be a lot cheaper than a rebuilt pump. Plus, I really enjoy doing rebuilds. It gives you a warm fuzzy when the darn thing works again.(hopefully)

While I got you, who do you know of that has parts or overhauls the starter on my JD450. I had it "rebuilt" last year and it's already getting tired..Pulls a ton of amps to turn the engine over???

Thanks again..Chip

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jdemaris

04-06-2006 14:07:13

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to Chip A, 04-06-2006 12:27:44

Why not the one from the guy on Ebay? It's a pretty good deal, or at least appears to be. It also may be a genuine Deere reprint - I don't know. The original starter on the 450s came in two sizes, 700 amp and 900 amp. Both AC Delcos. The 700 amp has a case that steps down in the back - i.e. two diameters. The 900 amp is straight, with one contant OD. They are direct-drive and don't last very long under constant cranking once the armature has been cut. If you live in a very cold area you'll find out. In a warm climate, it's not an issue. They both use the same brushes, brush holders, starter drives, solenoids, etc. Pretty straight forward and easy to work on. The weakest part is the starter-drive stop on the armature shaft. It's held on by a snap-ring and somethings pops off - and somethings hammers out the groove in the armature shaft. The solenoid is the same as used on Chevy/GM cars and trucks a few years back. You can buy them new for $20, or buy a " solenoid tune up kit" for $12, or - just pull it part and reverse the contacts and get twice the life out of it (if not done already). Also, there is an optional starter drive from Delco that's a little more heavy-duty. Personally, I no longer will buy anything from AC Delco (Delco-Remy). They used to be a great company. Now, in my opinion, they're a bunch of crooks selling the cheapest crap they can repackage. And, they don't stand behind their cheap crap. Also, sad to say, there are Chinese starters on the market, brand-new, high torque with gear-reduction, and made for many older tractors and diesel trucks. I just put one on my Chevy diesel truck and my neighbor's Deere tractor. $97 brand new and they work great. They appear to be AC Delco gear-reduction "clones."

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Chip A

04-08-2006 08:06:03

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2006 14:07:13

Where did you locate the high torque aftermarket delco clones. Is there a web site that has the china made high torques. If I'm going to take the starter out (3rd time) again, I just might put in a high torque and be done with it.

Where did you find yours.(This would be for my JD450 dozer)

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jdemaris

04-08-2006 17:54:56

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to Chip A, 04-08-2006 08:06:03

I bought them from several different places. The last one - the $97 starter for my Chevy diesel came from DB Electrical - down south, I think in Tennessee. Email - dbelectrical@comcast.net Phone - 800-753-2242

He's got so many different replacement starters for Deere diesels, maybe you ought to call him. For your crawler - with the two-bolt Delco starter, he has at least three different replacements, and maybe more. I suppose they are all Chinese clones. One is a Bosch "style" starter for $170. and two others are Nippo Denso "styles" for $160 and $150. All brand new.
Supposedly, the Bosch look-alike is what Deere now uses as OEM on some stuff. Some are direct drive, some gear-reduction. I know you don't like Ebay, but look at the on-line store he maintains there (not an auction) at:

Link

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Chip A

04-09-2006 04:53:33

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-08-2006 17:54:56

Thank you again Sir. I think I will give e-bay another try...Son-in-law uses them all the time with good luck. Chip

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Chip A

04-07-2006 11:43:53

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2006 14:07:13

Your not going to believe this. I just called W.I. Clark, our in state John Deere dealership.

$105.00 for the SM-2045 shop manual. Unbelieveable!!!! You can bet I'll be having my son-in-law sell this on e-bay for me when I'm done. They have huge B---s

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Chip A

04-07-2006 09:15:08

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2006 14:07:13

I guess it's like me in aviation, when you've been at your trade for this long, things have a way of sticking in the memory banks..BUT, Boy! are you one big walking talking Heavy Equipment file. I'm glad to have hooked up with you and I'm sure I'm not the only one who will get a lot out of this one original question. I sure have... The reason I'm a little skiddish about e-bay is I had a bad experience with Pay-Pal..Not their fault mind you..A crooks, but all the same, I don't have a warm fuzzy..Too bad. My son -in-law uses e-bay all the time with good success.

All the parts however will be gotten from the place you suggested in Texas..US Deisel. I'm hoping when I get home tonight, there is a fax from them with all I need to send them.

Thank you for the starter info and the Injector info. I'll let you know how it all turns out. God Bless. Your a good friend to all of us who think we can become heavy equipment mechanics..LOL Chip A-

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jay in ky

04-07-2006 09:03:38

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2006 14:07:13

JDEMARIS, you are a complete data base. That is a lot of good useful info that im sure lots of people will use. While ive got you, did you ever figure out the problem with the starters not fitting on your case 188 engine? You had posted this problem around a year ago.I also ran into this problem. I am running an old ac delco,straight drive on a newer skid steer that I believe originaly had a gear reduction starter. I have trouble starting this engine and I think the problem is the slower cranking starter, what do you think? The injection pump was just rebuilt and if anything its now harder to start than before. If its not 70 or highter the machine has to have a small shot of ether when cold. Thanks, Jay

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Chip A

04-05-2006 09:30:54

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Re: Regulating valve in reply to jdemaris, 04-05-2006 05:59:04

Thank you Sir! I think you may have rung the bell on this one. The injector pump looks a little beat so I doubt if it's ever been off the machine. I'm an aviation maintenance technician by profession so I'd like to give fixing it myself a try. Tonight when I get home, I'll look for the model number and post it for you tomorrow. Perhaps you could tell me where I can get the parts for the permanant fix that I could do at the shop or home in my shop. P.S. Yup!, Know all about mouse turds. I think my mother put them on our cream of wheat and tried to pass them off as whole grain ..Came from a poor family and all...LOL

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Chip A

04-05-2006 05:09:54

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Re: JD 450 rpm decays off. in reply to Chip A, 04-04-2006 10:49:44

Thanks Roy.

The feed all the way to the injector pump seems to be fine. I did however take the tank off and flush it just for kicks and giggles.

A guy at work who knows a little about injector pumps suggested it could be a plugged return line..

What do you think on that?

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Roy Suomi

04-04-2006 16:38:14

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Re: JD 450 rpm decays off. in reply to Chip A, 04-04-2006 10:49:44

Take the line off the shut-off valve at the fuel tank. Open the valve, there should be a full flow of fuel there. If not ,blow compressed air into the tank at the valve fitting, [ take cap off or loosen cap so it can breathe ]. If therer is a full flow there go to the transfer [ fuel pump ] pump and take the fitting off the suction side to check for full fuel flow..If not , blow thru this line back to tank... If there is a full flow and the machine still acts up , there may be a problem with the governor inside the injector pump needing rebuilding....good luck

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