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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Roosamaster timing marks on JD450

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Chip A

05-15-2006 06:00:15




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This is a long one boys.. Before I removed my injector pump to overhaul it, I brought the #1 cylinder to TDC and put the timing pin into the detent in the flywheel. At that point the timing mark on the weight retaineer was already past the timing mark on the cam by a few degrees. I have now completed the rebuild on the pump and during rebuild found the old weight retainer was marked 1 deg less than called for in the JD manual for my particular model/series pump. I marked the new weight retainer to the specified 138.5 deg using a roosamaster timing indicator. Now when I went to put it back on the machine, the timing mark is well past the timing window. You can't see the line on the weight retainer.

In order to bring the timing mark in line with the cam mark, I have to rotate the body of the pump counter clockwise (looking towards the front of the machine) quite a bit to even get close. Normally you see injector pumps streight up and down, not on an angle.

Could it be that the machine has been running with the timing gear one tooth off all these years.???? Everything else checks out perfect according to the Stanadyne/Roosamaster overhaul manual I bought from US Diesel and the JD pump manual. Any ideas gentleman????? ???

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Chip A

05-16-2006 03:29:29




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to Chip A, 05-15-2006 06:00:15  
Jdemaris you saved me again. I was having a hard time thinking that it could be one tooth off, but who knows. It was good to hear that most require advanced timing. That's exactly where it is now. The other thing is that I never changed the setting on the automatic advance when I took it apart, so I kinda ruled that out right away.

I put the pump back on last night and with a flashlight you can see that the timing line on the weight retainer is just below the timing window so i guess that's not so bad.

Also, the JD manual says to look for a "hole" in the face of the flywheel to put the timing pin in.. The only thing I find after bringing the #1 to TDC is a detent that doesn't really go in that far but it's enough for the pin to slip into. I "assume" that's it.

Your info on US Diesel was 100%..Great people to do business with. Marco R. went out of his way to get us the parts we needed to include the stanadyne timing card for the weight retainer...

Thanks again...Chip A

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jdemaris

05-16-2006 05:35:11




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to Chip A, 05-16-2006 03:29:29  
The timing hole in the flywheel is probably partially stripped - that's common. I've seen it done - by spinning the engine with the starter and holding pressure on the flywheel pin. It's not a good way to do it since the flywheel is moving too fast and has momemtum - it usually strips the hole this way. In regard to the location of the scribed timing mark - it varies with different pumps on the 450s anyway - some use 136.5 degrees and some use 138.5 degrees - it doesn't make much of a difference. With the fuel advance timing - it is directly affected by the internal fuel pressure - that's how it operates. Some of the older DB and JDB pumps used a little rubber plug in the transfer-pump regulator - and it would usually blow out and the advance would not work properly. It was updated with a little steel bushing that probably came in the seal kit - and most likely your pump already had it installed. If the pump is not advancing far or soon enough, the engine will usually skip slighty in a no-load high-RPM situation.

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Chip A

05-16-2006 12:36:57




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to jdemaris, 05-16-2006 05:35:11  
As usual, great info.. If I can ever get it to stop raining in Connecticut, I could have the "ole Girl" ready to test fire in a few hours. As a precaution, I took the fuel tank off to clean it and all the fuel lines that could be taken off I brought to work to power clean. So, just a couple of hours of reinstallation time and turn the switch. Check back and I'll give you an update.

By the way, now that you don't work for JD anymore, what do you do. Are you retired???

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jdemaris

05-17-2006 05:40:21




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to Chip A, 05-16-2006 12:36:57  
My life in a nutshell is like this. I got crushed by a tractor driving over me back 15-16 years ago - and my neck and legs were broken. I was partially paralyzed at the time. So, I cashed in my pension-plan money, lived off of it, got several operations - and at the time thought I could never do anything physical again. I went to college, got several degrees thinking it would enable me to enter the work-world as a "professional" rather than a blue-collar grease-monkey. It didn't work - I can't hack it. I don't like working inside and I don't take orders well. I feel myself wither when I put on clean clothes. Now, I'm an "educated grease-monkey." Also, physically, I'm back to doing things as I always did - just slower -and I can't lift much, and I limp a bit. Up to a few years ago I was self-employed as an electrician, carpenter, diesel mechanic, records researcher, and computer-repair tech. We also had a vegetable stand and grew and sold sweet corn, potatoes, etc. Then, to my (our) surprise my wife had a baby and she holds me partially responsible. At the time, my children aged from 23 to 35 - so my new son was born at the same time as several of my grandchildren. Now - I take care of him while my wife works at a job that has health benefits. She's the asst. director of a museum/mill site with a steam and water powered grist and saw mill. Subsequently, with a two year old with me all the time - I don't find it easy to conduct "business as usual." During the day I still do computer work, and have also been buying and selling land. At night, I work on tractors, trucks, etc. - mostly my own, some for resale, and also a limited amount of repair work for hire. My wife and I are probably going to home-school our new son - since I've had it with the public school system. So - I have no idea what the future will bring - in regard to what I'll be doing for money. We're lucky that we don't owe a penny to anyone anywhere and also own several properties. It won't be long though that school and property taxes will make this lifestyle very difficult. And, now we both are to blame for that. The school tax vote was yesterday and neither my wife and I voted. It was passed - 204 to 202. I can't believe it! The one time we didn't vote, it actually WOULD have made a difference.

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Chip A

05-17-2006 07:50:10




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to jdemaris, 05-17-2006 05:40:21  
Well, I'd have to say that we are pretty close to the same age. My oldest is 33 and I'll be 60 next birthday. My Dad had the same thing happen to him that happened to you, only he was trapped between a steel beam and an old fashioned cast iron boiler. Fortunately, he never made it to the hospital alive. I say fortunately because once they got the boiler off him they found he was pretty much cut in half and the bottom half from the belly down was almost flat. Once the weight of the boiler was off him, all the blood ran out. He was a lot like you and I.. hands on or nothing. clean cloths made him itchy also..LOL.

I know what you mean about the taxes. Not only is Connecticut very expensive to live in, but the town taxes are going up every year because of energy costs for the school system and municipal vehicles.

We just built out "retirement" home three years ago. hence the JD450. We just hope that we'll be able to stay here on retirement pay. My wife will retire from the bank in five years. I have my military retirement and next year I could retire from my full time job. "If" the money is right.

Again, thanks for all your help. I hope to keep in touch. Chip A

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jdemaris

05-15-2006 17:54:38




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to Chip A, 05-15-2006 06:00:15  
I doubt the gears are out of time - but can't say I ever tried to run a Deere diesel engine that way, nor have I ever encountered one that way. But - I've worked on a few gas engines that were one tooth out of time - and they ran terrible. You will find that many Deere engines are set with the intial-timing advanced a few degrees - regardless of what the book calls for. Remember book settings are general settings made to be "close enough" to work on all the engines - they are not optimum settings. Some will start and run better advanced - in fact - most do. We had to do it with many brand new tractors. Many Deere engines, when the pumps are timed properly, have tilted pumps - so that doesn't mean much. Keep in mind though, that one degree of timing at the pump equals two engine-degrees. General speaking - those Deere engines will run rough and skip a bit if the intitial timing is just a few degrees retarded. So,a good rule of thumb is - start out with the initial timing at TDC - and if it skips a bit and smokes on cold start-up - try advancing a bit - until you get the best reaction out of it. Same can be said for the timing advance - but that usually does not require any tweaking as long as it is working to original specs. At the Deere dealerships I worked at, many a time a good running tractor would come in for service, a new mechanic would get his hands on it and set everything to "book settings", and then we'd get complaints - like "what the h*ll did you guys do to my tractor - it starts like sh*t" Funny thing is, I've got several British diesel tractors - and their repair instructions are much more relaxed. My IH B-275 for example - gives retarded intial timing settings for a "quiet engine when full power is not needed", and then says to advance a few degrees for "more power and more noise."

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Chip A

05-16-2006 03:44:46




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to jdemaris, 05-15-2006 17:54:38  
I put my reply in the wrong place. Check my reply above.. Thanks...Chip A



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Jay in KY

05-15-2006 10:08:39




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 Re: Roosamaster timing marks on JD450 in reply to Chip A, 05-15-2006 06:00:15  
I was wondering about the timing on these pumps myself. I recently had my pump rebuilt on my case skid steer(188 engine) and removing/installing it was a bear because the engine is hard to reach and everything is close quarters. I thought I got the flywheel marks lined up and the gears to.Will the engine even run one tooth off? Also the timing marks on the flywheel were hard to figure out, had a bunch of lines on it,but according to the manual it should be correct. When I set the marks in the timing window I had to use a mirror to see them but everything seemed to be correct. Now the machine wont start without ether. After it does start it seems to run fine. Can these pump housings be moved? the injection lines seem to have it locked into position. Is it a small amount? Again, everything is very hard to get to or see on this machine. Before the pump rebuild the engine would start fine in mild temps, now it takes three tries with ether before it will stay running. Jay

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