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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Clutches slipping on JD 350

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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-23-2006 07:10:41




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I recently bought a used John Deere 350 loader. I got it home, changed all the filters, fluids, etc. Got on it to work it a little bit. Within 10 minutes or so, I began to have trouble. Here are the symptoms:

1) When pressed against a load, the crawler will not "spin out". The engine smothers a little bit, but mostly it just sits there once the load gets to a certain point. Somewhat like an automatic transmission on a worn out diesel truck that won't pull.

2) The crawler eventually wouldn't move very well. It would just sit there, even not under a load. Wiggling the steering clutches back and forth would eventually make it go.

3) Related to the above problem...or maybe the same problem...I had trouble steering it. Again, wiggling the clutches back and forth would eventually make it go. But, most of the time the trouble seemed to be that there was no power transfer to the tracks. For example, I would be wanting to turn to the right or left, and the machine would just sit there. Wiggling the respective clutch back and forth would eventually make it "catch" and it would go again.

4) In about 10 minutes of operation, it popped out of 1st gear 2 or 3 times and popped out of 3rd gear everytime. (ie it won't run in 3rd gear)

If anyone has an idea where to start, I'd sure appreciate it! I can work on it, but being that this is my first crawler, I don't have any experience troubleshooting or working on one. I assume that either the steering clutches are bad or the reverser is bad...or both. The gear popping, I don't know.

Anyone with more experience than I have any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!
Jerry

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original possum

06-30-2006 12:46:59




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
I paid $2500 for one with 40% UC with a bad tramsmission and stuck clutches. Had to replace the whole tranny thru the ring gear because he had the front bearing spin out and didn't have sense enough to stop when it started jumping out of gear.



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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-27-2006 08:03:18




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
I've checked the drain plugs on the clutches. They've been removed. The right side was dry, the left side had a little bit of oil/grease around the hole. Couldn't tell if it was coming out of the hole or came from something else. Anyway, it looks like the clutches are due to be replaced. Any suggestions as I begin to tear into it?

Also, would it be recommended to tear into the transmission and rebuild it while the final drives are off anyway? I have found the it occassionally pops out of 2nd gear too. How much more work is it to continue on to the tranny while it's down?

Finally, the guy that sold it to me will take it back, or he will refund some of what I paid for it if I want to keep it and repair it. This is a 350 w/reverser and rippers, good u/c, good motor. Any ideas what the machine, in it's current condition (both bad clutches, tranny popping out of gear), would be worth?

Thanks!

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original possum

06-23-2006 21:41:11




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
If the front bearing is spinning out it will cut a hole in the bearing cap pretty quickly and then shell out just about everything in short order, including the ring gear, which is hard to find, and the transmission case.



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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-23-2006 19:19:59




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
Thanks for all your replies...

I looked into things a bit further this afternoon. I did what Uncle suggested: Place the machine under a load (it would"t move and the tracks didn"t turn) and looked at the gear. The gear was spinning. So...does this mean both steering clutches are shot?

I already checked steering clutch adjustment...and tried to adjust them per the manual. There is free play in them and the clutch arm is completely at rest when the steering levers are not being manipulated. In fact, I think there was too much play in them...possibly the previous owner had the same thought.

This machine does have a reverser. The reverser seems to work fine...ie it shifts the machine from forward to reverse. Of course, I have had an opportunity to run it very much as of yet.

When I first picked up the machine and loaded it up...and then unloaded it at home...the steering seemed to work okay. Is it likely that both clutches have given out at exactly this time? The only thing I did to it after getting it home was clean it with a pressure sprayer and change all filters and most fluids. And as it is now, it will barely steer...or move.

Regarding the transmission popping out of gear...is this likely going to get serious real fast? I can live without 3rd gear. Or might it still have some work left in it?

Thanks again for all your help. Keep it coming. I appreciate you guys!

Jerry

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CH

06-24-2006 14:26:41




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 19:19:59  
If you need steering clutch parts i sell steering Kits New Pressure Plate New Brake Band dics and throw out bearing plus i have new and used parts for that machine email me for a link



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jdemaris

06-24-2006 05:56:24




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 19:19:59  
I don't know how thoroughly you tested the crawler before buying - my point being it is unclear to me if you are sure this is a new problem, or it perhaps exisited before you bought the machine. It IS possible you did it by pressure washing - I've seen it happen many times. Such washing can do a lot of damage - I've seen it ruin steering clutches, seize fuel injection pumps, etc. One Deere dealership I worked at, no equipment was allowed into the shop without being pressure washed/steam cleaned first - so I saw what can happen. Sometimes a crawler with polluted steering clutches was brougt back to life by dumping a gallon of laquer thinner in each housing, run for awhile, then drained. It is possible you filled the steering clutch housings with a mix of water and dirt/grease - and that is causing them to slip. Regardless - they are supposed to run dry - and if wet - or oily - they will slip. Each side has a drain plug on the bottom. It is supposed to removed once in awhile - but it often gets forgotten. Some people prefer to leave the plugs out - which works fine until you drive through water or mud - and the housing get filled from the bottom up. I had to go out on a road call one day - mid winter - where a logger parked his 350 in a three-foot deep creek overnight. It had been 20 F below and he was trying to keep the undercarriage from freezing. What a mess! Clutch housing were full. Some companies, e.g. Allis Chalmers, came up with a special "vented" drain plug that allowed water to drain out - one direction - but would not allow water to come in. Also, starting with the 350 series - shortly before the "B" came out, Deere offered bronze-surfaced disks instead of the fiber. They handle moisture much better than the fiber disks but they cost more. All my Allis Chalmers crawlers have them. With Deere, as far as I know, they were not available with the earlier 440s or 1010s, and were not factory installed until the 350B series came out. But, they fit fine in the first 350s. Besides water intrusion, there are several places that gear oil can get in - from the inside out (transmission case) or the outside in (from the final drives). I've also seen a few that got oil from the top down (leaking power steering cylinders or other lines). The latter is especially true if the steering clutch access lids on top are not sealed well - and they rarely are. Pull then off and look inside - and you'll probably see what the problem is. In regard to the transmission getting worse. If it's popping out gear because of an angle worn on the ends of the gear teeth - it will get worse and wear more every time it pops out again while under a load. If you can grind the gear teeth enough so they will stay engaged - they will last awhile. If they are worn too short, and you can not, they will not last. It is a sliding gear transmission - and the shifting forks and detent balls are only guides - they are not intended to forcefully hold the gears in place. When the gears are in good shape - and engaged (i.e. in mesh), and under load - the rotational force tends to keep them in line with each other. But . . . once an angled wear pattern from gear clash is established - they want to push away from each other when under a load. The same sort of thing occurs in cars and trucks with contant mesh transmissions that don't use sliding gears - the wear there occurs in the shift collars and dogs instead.

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jonjon

06-23-2006 20:02:59




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 19:19:59  
My 350 dozer did the same thing seals in the ring gear housing let oil on the clutches both at the same time too.



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jdemaris

06-23-2006 18:18:47




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
What Uncle posted is probaby the best way to tell if it's the steering-clutches slipping - unless your 350 has a PTO or a winch shaft you can watch. Since the crawler reacts when you play with the levers, the steering clutches are most likely the problem - or at least one of them. You didn't mention a few basics - i.e. and e.g. are the levers anywhere close to being in adjustment? With each lever, there has to be some free play - just like a clutch pedal on a car or truck. When pulled further, the lever first disengages the steering clutch, and when pulled further - it should feel solid and engage the steering brake. If the clutches have gathered moisture, the installed height of the clutch-packs gets higher - and all free play is lost. Then, they won't work. I don't know how old your 350 is, and if it has a hydraulic reverser. The latter was optional until the "C" series came out, and was then standard equipment. If you have an early 350, there are three places slippage can occurr - the engine clutch, the reverser, and/or the steering clutches. Even if the machine has a hydraulic reverser, the early 350s use an engine clutch to drive it (with no means of disconnect). In regard to the gear transmission popping out of gear. It is a sliding gear (not constant mesh) transmission. Once the gears have been shifted a bit too much "on the go", and clashed, they get angles worn onto the engagement side of the gear. These angles allow rotational force to push sideways instead, and the gears simply push themselves out of gear whenever a rotational load occurs. There's usually no fix other than gear replacement. At times, you can pull the top cover, and if there is enough material left on the gear teeth, they can be reground a bit sometimes made to stay in gear.

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original possum

06-23-2006 15:19:00




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
For popping out of gear, pull the transmission cover and bend a welding rod to hook under the front end of the output shaft. If it can be wiggled up and down in neutral the front bearing is spun out and you MAY have caught it in time. They are famous for this problem.



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Uncle

06-23-2006 10:37:16




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 Re: Clutches slipping on JD 350 in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-23-2006 07:10:41  
I can give you a quick way to see what the trouble is.
Directly under the seat is a rectangle plate that covers the Ring Gear.
Pull this plate and put na load on the machine until it quits moving. Leave it pushing against the load and look at the Ring Gear.
If the Ring Gear is spinning, you are haveing slippage in your steering clutches.
If the Ring Gear is not moving you have main clutch/Reverser problem.
Brian

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