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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JD 350 Steering Clutch replacement

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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-29-2006 11:06:36




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I'm going to replace the steering clutches on my John Deere 350. I've heard that some of the parts, such as the steel discs, can be reused and save some expense. Any thoughts or opinions on whether or not it is wise to re-use any of the parts?

Does anyone have an opinion on the merit of spending the extra $$ on the bimetalic discs vs. the fiber?

Also, any general suggestions regarding the job at hand would be most appreciated!

Thanks,
Jerry

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Roy Suomi

06-29-2006 20:06:19




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 Re: JD 350 Steering Clutch replacement in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-29-2006 11:06:36  
Mind if I put in my 2 cents worth??? Steel plates in steering clutches are reuseable as long as they are not pitted from rust..Fiber from the fiber plates stick in the pitted plates and cause slippage..I haven't had any problems by reusing steels..The best advice I can give to an owner of an early 350 or 450 is cover that rear half of the machine with a tarp, everyday.....



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jdemaris

06-29-2006 18:45:21




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 Re: JD 350 Steering Clutch replacement in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-29-2006 11:06:36  
The bi-metallic plates are less apt to get stuck when they get water and/or oil on them. Fiber disks can get stuck something awful. If you are careful with the crawler - and drain the steering-clutch housings once in a while, and when storing the crawler - put ropes on the steering-clutch levers to keep pressure off the clutches - then fibers are fine. In regard to CH not having trouble with fibers - and replacing all steels regardless of condition? It's not the way I do things. I worked for three Deere dealers and we had fleets of rental 350s - along with customer owned machines. The bulk of our repairs was fixing reversers and steering-clutches in Deere 350s. The bigger Deeres (450s and up) held up a lot better. Deere tried to get customers to use the bi-metallic in the 350s - but they were expensive and never took-on. Deere started factory installing them on new machines - late Bs as I recall. They then changed over to wet-clutches in the C series. They had plenty of problems also. In regard to blindly changing steels? It's your money. But . . . they are easy to check. All they are is flat steel. If they are not warped, not badly rusted or scored, and measure to the proper thickness - then by replacing them you are simply throwing your money away. Usually, failed steering-clutch jobs are a result of loose bearings in the ring-gear carrier or the input shaft in final drives. When not adjusted properly, the seals leak oil and mess up the clutches. Just a drop a day will add up after awhile - especially if it has nowhere to go. Also, the inspection covers on top are rarely sealed properly and let rain, melted snow, and sometimes "oil and fuel" from above into clutches. That is especially true after a pressure-washing. A note about replacing parts. Do what you are comfortable with. But - for someone to hint that a mechanic is being negligent by not replacing all the parts with new - is rediculous. A good mechanic has the smarts to figure out what is reuseable - and what is not. Otherwise - supplant the word "mechanic" with "parts changer."

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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-29-2006 19:38:50




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 Re: JD 350 Steering Clutch replacement in reply to jdemaris, 06-29-2006 18:45:21  
jdemaris,

Would you say that the same logic applies to the pressure plate,throwout bearing, and brake band...or did you normally replace them when doing a clutch job?

I get the impression from reading your posts that you're not a big fan of the 350? Kind of makes me think I should have gone with the 450...

I certainly appreciate your advice and expertise.

Thanks!



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jdemaris

06-30-2006 05:43:27




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 350s any good? in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-29-2006 19:38:50  
350 is a great little crawler - but the key words are "little" and "crawler", it's not meant to be used as a big jackhammer. The 1010 crawler was a pretty good little machine also - when used right. When I first worked at a Deere dealership in New Jersey - back in the 60s - I don't recall ever seeing a 350 fall apart. Most repairs were routine and expected - steering clutches, reversers and isolators, rollers, fuel injection pumps, etc. But - that region of New Jersey is sand and clay with very little hard-pan. I even had to service a few 350s that were roof-top mounted on skyscrapers in New York City. The second Deere dealership I worked at was in a "black dirt" area of lower New York State - mostly lettuce and onion farms. Most of the 350s were wide-track and had three-point hitches and were used for field work. They lasted forever - and are probably still going. When I went to work in central New York State - I saw many 350s literally torn to pieces. That's not Deere's fault. We have lots of hardpan and boulders here. In many places, there's two inches of top soil and the rest is rock. When a logger needed a bunching-crawler, or a quarrier needed a crawler for opening up a shale-bank - very often the 350 was chosen over the 450 simply due to the price difference. Subsequently, 350s were often used and abused - for jobs they were not suited for. Many times I saw loggers chain the front of their 350 to a tree so they could winch up a bunch of logs - and often - something major broke. Same sort of treatment went for our rentals. The bigger the machine - the more the rental fee. So, people usually tried to get by with the smallest machine possible. I am not an expert pond digger - but it seems - in the long run - a machine that's twice as expensive but works twice as fast - is a better deal. If a person wished to buy a good used 350 crawler - they were - and are - better off finding one down state - in my area. A used 350 from this area - except for a few rare unabused machines - would almost always have cracked and rewelded side-frames, loose mounts between the trans. and reverser, cracked and/or stripped steering clutch housings and final drives, track frames that are hammered to death where they mount to the crossbar, etc. The last place I worked, my boss decided to avoid the "fast buck" selling 350s, and worked harder to convince certain users to buy 450s (or larger) instead. Most of our customers that were hard users - i.e. loggers, quarriers, pond diggers - who made the change claimed later that the 450 was more than twice the machine the 350 was - if you take into account not only the work it can do, but how long it holds together.

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Mike M

06-30-2006 11:40:11




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 Re: 350s any good? in reply to jdemaris, 06-30-2006 05:43:27  
What did they use those roof mounted 350's for ? Tell us more about these.



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jdemaris

06-30-2006 14:00:07




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 Re: 350s any good? in reply to Mike M, 06-30-2006 11:40:11  
They were used in high-rise parking lots but I don't recall exactly for what. When I said roof - actually it was an upper level - maybe 10-15 stories up. It was over 30 years ago - and I'm a little foggy on it. There were several and I was told that originally, they were craned up there and intended to stay there - more-or-less forever.
I had to go there one time to rebuild a reverser - on site and made many trips with hoists and tools via a large service elevator. It was almost enough incentive for me to find a new job. I'm not a "city" person - and know nothing abouth skyscrapers so I have no idea if that sort of thing was unusual or common place.

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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-30-2006 07:09:14




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 Re: 350s any good? in reply to jdemaris, 06-30-2006 05:43:27  
I understand. It's reasonable to assume that the smaller crawler is slower than a larger, and better suited for a lighter duty than a large crawler. I would prefer a 450, but haven't been able to find one worth the money. We do have rough ground in our area, but this little 350 has rippers. I've found that rippers are of tremendous value when digging here. They tear up the ground very well, even the large rocks, etc. making the workload on the crawler much less than without the rippers. In fact, although I'm not an expert by any means, I think it may be easier to deal with our rocky, rough soil with a 350 with rippers than it would be with a 450 without. Would you agree or disagree?

Thing is, I have found a 450 that I can buy...for about $3000 more than I have in the 350. If I am convinced that the 450 (no rippers) is worth the price differential, I would buy it.

My intent is to take down small-small/medium trees, do a little dirt moving, and ground work. I'm not going to use it everyday...and don't necessarily need the fastest machine. I do want a durable machine that is capable of doing the work I need to do. Our soil is rocky and rough. Our trees not deeply rooted. What would be your opinion? Stick with the 350+rippers or go with a 450 without rippers? Is the 450 worth $3000 more?

I appreciate you!

Jerry

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jdemaris

06-30-2006 07:51:42




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 Re: 350s any good? in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-30-2006 07:09:14  
I think you ought to actually try both if possible. I assume that's hard to do, though. In my area - trees of any size come out hard. I've heard many times that a 450 would push out a stump with little effort - whereas a guy would work on a same size stump for hours with a 350. And pushing dirt? Take a turbocharged 450 (late B or newer) and there is no comparing it to a 350 - it is MUCH more machine - in power and stuctural integrity. That all being said - a 350 may be more than enough for what you need. I've got a Deere #35 rear ripper on my 1010 crawler that can hold five shanks. But - the ground is too hard to pull five and I run three. It is very handy. There are many things to take into account. A 350 is - for the most part - easier and cheaper to work on. But - take a 350 and 450 - side by side - in compariable condition - and do the same work - and the 450 should need repairs less often. But now - you talking a machine maybe 40 years old? So, price, condition, how much repair you can do yourself, etc. all count for a lot. My neighbor just bought a 350 with a mechanical 6 way blade and winch for $4000. It runs good but it's pretty hammered and needs - at the least - a lot of undercarriage work. I just passed up a chance to buy a 450B with a full hydraulic 6-way blade for $4500. I passed it up because once it got hot - it would not move. HL-R transmsission problem. Could very easily cost $4000 to fix just the transmission and who knows what else I'd find along the way.
Not long ago I paid $3600 for an Allis Chalmers HD4. It's about the same weight class as a Deere 350 but has the horsepower closer to a 450. It has a hydraulic 6 way blade. It needed undercarriage and an engine job - and over time - I've found it needs much more. I'll easily have $7000 into it - in total when done - without putting any value on my labor. If I was paying for the work-hours - it would be a $20,000 machine - and better suited for the junkyard. So - I don't know if any of this helps clear things up - or just muddy the water. I do think - if you're careful - a 350 with 6-way in good condition can still be found in the $5000-$6000 price range - but they are rare. A similar 1010 a little cheaper. A dealer near me - right now - has a 350 and a 450 for sale. Both with 6-ways and both early 1960s machines. Asking prices? $13,000 for the 350 and $17,000 for the 450. I think he's nuts - but you never know - someone might have money to burn - and dirt to play with - and pay the price. At least with my cursed Allis Chalmers HD4 - when I get done with it - I know exactly what I have (since I've had to fix just about every nut and bolt on it). By the way - just for your reference. I bought my Deere 1010 crawler-loader with the rear #35 ripper on it for $1800 from the original owner. It had been babied since new - but burnt up in a "light fire" from the hood up. A local dealer gave him a price of over $10,000 to fix it. So, he sold it to me. I spent a $1000 on it - and lot of time - but it's a nice running and tight machine. He replaced it with a 350 crawler-loader - but recently tried to buy back the 1010 from me. He says he liked it better. I think mainly because it trailered easier and started better in cold weather. I also bought an Allis Chalmers HD6 that is basically equal in power and weight to a Deere 450. It is in excellent condition with new paint, steering clutches, rebuilt 344 cube engine, undercarriage like new, etc. I paid $5800 for it. The guy had been asking $8000 and I talked him down. But still - I was very uneasy at the time paying that much money. In retrospect - now - it's been a pleasure. Simple to work on - reliable - and rugged. It's nowhere near as convenient to run like a Deere 450 - but still does the same amount of work overall. It was a rare pleasure for me to buy something I could use right away - instead of spending two or three winters rebuilding it first.

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FirstCrawlerOwner

07-03-2006 20:07:31




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 Re: 350s any good? in reply to jdemaris, 06-30-2006 07:51:42  
Well...I've made a U-turn. Based on the assistance and many opinions I've received - and the amount of work I would have to do on this 350 to make it right - I've decided not to buy the 350. Instead, I found an early 450 with a 4 in 1 bucket that I'm going to buy. It doesn't have the rippers like I would prefer, but it does have pretty new undercarriage (everything from pads to pins), clutches, etc...all replaced within the last 5 years. It's only going to cost a little more than the 350, but I won't have to work on it...at least not right away. You've sold me on the durability and strenght of the 450 over the 350!

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CH

06-29-2006 12:06:42




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 Re: JD 350 Steering Clutch replacement in reply to FirstCrawlerOwner, 06-29-2006 11:06:36  
I replace everything when i do them ,is it necessary maybe not all the time BUT it is alot of work and i learned along time ago it cost way more the second time your down then it did to do it right from the start. I know all these hot shots on here are going to say they only put some of the parts in and were fine and i'm 56 with alot to learn i just would not do all that work and not replace all of it. Kind of like taking a shower and puttng your old shorts back on and clean pants over them,it will work but not as long if it was all clean! This is just my opinion! As far as fiber vs metallic I sell Thousands of fibers and have had no problems,If you have a loader and are working it hard doing lots of turnning and digging then maybe you should get metallics but for a limited use machine and you want to keep the cost in reason i feel the fibers are fine. Biggest thing is keep it adjusted and out of the weather. I'd say condensation and oil leaks are the biggest killers of steering clutches.

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FirstCrawlerOwner

06-29-2006 14:37:36




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 Re: JD 350 Steering Clutch replacement in reply to CH, 06-29-2006 12:06:42  
My inclination is to replace everything too. Thanks for the input!



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